Origin of the Jawa Demam hilt form

[jonng]

Hi David,

That the gesture is a bow is I think probable (and could have evolved later?). That the "arm goes across the belly and the figure is bent over as if sick to the stomach" is to me a bit difficult to accept because I cannot see any in my collection or those that have been put up here having the arm going across the stomach. All of them seems to have the right arm going across the chest (or do I see them wrong?!).
Have the carvers made some mistakes in their carving or interpretation some time in the past? If not, regarding posture I often see these two:
1. squatting or sitting on something (very low) with both knees up, right elbow slightly over or resting on the right knee.
2. semi-kneeling/ half squat position, right knee up with the right elbow resting on it and left knee on the ground.
The right arm looks to be above the stomach in all these forms. Of course I could have seen them all wrong so I'm really grateful this thread came up.

Jonathan

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by jonng

Hi David,

That the gesture is a bow is I think probable (and could have evolved later?). That the "arm goes across the belly and the figure is bent over as if sick to the stomach" is to me a bit difficult to accept because I cannot see any in my collection or those that have been put up here having the arm going across the stomach. All of them seems to have the right arm going across the chest (or do I see them wrong?!).
Have the carvers made some mistakes in their carving or interpretation some time in the past? If not, regarding posture I often see these two:
1. squatting or sitting on something (very low) with both knees up, right elbow slightly over or resting on the right knee.
2. semi-kneeling/ half squat position, right knee up with the right elbow resting on it and left knee on the ground.
The right arm looks to be above the stomach in all these forms. Of course I could have seen them all wrong so I'm really grateful this thread came up.

Jonathan

Hello Jonathan,

from the same book is this reduced drawing of this position. So the left knee is not on the ground. The leg is more or less straight. When you see the handles from the North-East coast of Java it is correct.
sajen

[erikscollectables]

Here some from my collection.
Sorry for the poor quality of the pics.
This was all I could do at the moment...

Regards, Erik

[David]

Originally Posted by jonng

That the gesture is a bow is I think probable (and could have evolved later?). That the "arm goes across the belly and the figure is bent over as if sick to the stomach" is to me a bit difficult to accept because I cannot see any in my collection or those that have been put up here having the arm going across the stomach. All of them seems to have the right arm going across the chest (or do I see them wrong?!).
Have the carvers made some mistakes in their carving or interpretation some time in the past? If not, regarding posture I often see these two:
1. squatting or sitting on something (very low) with both knees up, right elbow slightly over or resting on the right knee.
2. semi-kneeling/ half squat position, right knee up with the right elbow resting on it and left knee on the ground.
The right arm looks to be above the stomach in all these forms. Of course I could have seen them all wrong so I'm really grateful this thread came up.

Jonathan, i am not asking you to accept that the arm goes across the stomach or the chest as i am not making a case for either. It doesn't seem to me that you can really be sure way or another considering the abstractness of the hilt form. My point is that at some time, someone apparently saw the arm as being across the stomach in a stooped over posture, ergo the name Jawa Demam, the "sick Javanese". At least this is what i have been told. This does not in any way prove what the original intent of the body posture may have been. If it is possible we might want to try to nail down when this name for this hilt form first came into fashion and explore what other names, if any, may have been used for it.

[A. G. Maisey]

G.B. Gardner, Keris and Other Malay Weapons, 1936.

The Jawa Demam.

The legend is as follows:-

A certain raja called his pandai besi and ordered him to make a keris hilt that was unlike any other, or lose his life. The keris maker could not think what to do , but as night came on, it grew cold and the raja who had a fever (demam) pulled his sarung up, and hugged himself to keep warm. Then the keris maker carved a hilt in his likeness. This, at any rate is the story; but I think the use of a figure is to give luck to the keris.

[David]

Alan, is this name found in any writings that you know of previous to Gardner?

[A. G. Maisey]

Off the top of my head, no, David.

Stone calls these figural demon-like hilts "raksha". I can't remember reading these terms in any other early writings. Might be a good idea to have a look at Raffles. The Ying Yai Sheng Lan --- 15th century--- refers to "--- human or devils faces---", so the Chinese percieved them as such also.

You could also call some of these "raksasa" style hilts "buta".

[A. G. Maisey]

Checked Raffles:- no reference there that I can find.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Stone calls these figural demon-like hilts "raksha". I can't remember reading these terms in any other early writings. Might be a good idea to have a look at Raffles. The Ying Yai Sheng Lan --- 15th century--- refers to "--- human or devils faces---", so the Chinese percieved them as such also.
You could also call some of these "raksasa" style hilts "buta".

This is just my personal observation, but i really think we are looking at 2 completely different hilt form developments here. I can't help but think that the figures crouching with their hands on their knees are a distinctly different intention than the ones most often referred to as Jawa Demam, with the one crossed arm. To me these are 2 completely different postures that seem to convey different cultural attitudes. Though i can't claim to know what exactly, each of these postures seems to be telling me a different story. It is the squatting, hands on knees variety that i am more likely to associate with raksasa.
I do find Kai Wee's example in post #26 puzzling though as it does appear to be a hybrid of both these forms, but i have not seen too many that do that.

[A. G. Maisey]

I'm sorry David, but I cannot pursue this discussion.

I know too little about the subject to make any worthwhile remarks or to formulate any even vaguely supportable theories.

But I will say this:-

I can see more than just two sources for keris hilt origin. There are the giants, the ogres, the spirits, the demons, the deities, the wayang characters, and perhaps even the ancestors. Then there are the purely vegetable forms and purely animal and bird forms. There are also the rarest of the rare:- the naturally occurring forms that are adapted for use as keris hilts. There are many sources for keris hilt motifs.

But how, when, where and why I simply cannot theorise on.

[BluErf]

Originally Posted by David

I do find Kai Wee's example in post #26 puzzling though as it does appear to be a hybrid of both these forms, but i have not seen too many that do that.

Dave's example is probably even older. It even has a facial features on the face, and it does not look like a rashaksa; more like a old man. Maybe I'll try to ask him to post a pic. But even then, it probably won't help much with the discussion on origins.