Ethnographic Arms & Armour

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-   -   Origin of the Jawa Demam hilt form (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10083)

Alam Shah 7th May 2009 12:03 AM

Origin of the Jawa Demam hilt form
 
Hi all,

These questions had been lingering in my mind for a long time..

Where did the 'Jawa Demam' hilt form come from? What inspired it?
By what other name is it known as? local dialect, etc?
How does it evolved?

Any theory, thoughts, stories, folklore.. etc, are welcomed. :)

Alam Shah 7th May 2009 03:57 AM

Sumatran
 
3 Attachment(s)
Sumatran styled 'Jawa Demam' hilt variants.

Alam Shah 7th May 2009 04:01 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Malay Peninsular styled 'Jawa Demam' hilt variants..

Sajen 7th May 2009 07:53 PM

Hello Alam,
I think this will be very difficult to find out from where it come from. But maybe, and this is only a guess from me, it's origin is Cirebon.
You remember this threat:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...highlight=tegal

But maybe it will be nice when we can see in this threat many different Jawa Demam hilts. I also have some.
sajen

Alam Shah 8th May 2009 04:22 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sajen
Hello Alam,
I think this will be very difficult to find out from where it come from. But maybe, and this is only a guess from me, it's origin is Cirebon.
You remember this thread:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...highlight=tegal

But maybe it will be nice when we can see in this thread many different Jawa Demam hilts. I also have some.
sajen
Ah! yes.. thanks sajen for that thread, there's a pointer there.. bring the hilt pictures on.. ;)

rasdan 8th May 2009 08:13 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Probably

Alam Shah 8th May 2009 09:44 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by rasdan
Probably
Diety(?) form with a garuda mungkur on its back, which evolved into its present simplified form..

Thanks Rasdan for the illustrations. :)

rasdan 8th May 2009 11:05 AM

2 Attachment(s)
Sorry i have to delete the "captions". Its not related to the hilt.

Alam Shah 8th May 2009 05:04 PM

Garuda Mungkur
 
1 Attachment(s)
Hi Rasdan,

I've took the liberty of re-labelling the pic.

Alam Shah 8th May 2009 05:16 PM

Garuda Mungkur
 
1 Attachment(s)
2nd pic.

rasdan 8th May 2009 06:32 PM

Cool.. Forgot to write blu's name there. Thanks.

Sajen 8th May 2009 11:49 PM

#1
 
3 Attachment(s)
Here some of my Jawa Demam handles. Please excuse the not best quality of the pictures and the dust. :rolleyes:
The first handle is from ivory and my guess is that it is a North Sumatra handle, maybe Gayo.

Sajen 9th May 2009 12:05 AM

#2
 
3 Attachment(s)
A very old ivory handle with unusual flat head.
Tomorrow I will upload some more.
sajen

Alam Shah 9th May 2009 12:43 AM

Thanks Sajen,
Nice old ivory hilts.. :)

Sajen 9th May 2009 02:06 PM

#3
 
3 Attachment(s)
An old ivory ornamental Palembang hilt.

Sajen 9th May 2009 02:10 PM

#4
 
3 Attachment(s)
A big ivory hilt with a hole in the head, maybe for a jimat stone.

Sajen 9th May 2009 02:14 PM

#5
 
3 Attachment(s)
A wooden hilt from the nort cost from Sumatra with metal nose and eyes.

Sajen 9th May 2009 02:21 PM

#6
 
A molar hilt from Minangkabau I show in this threat:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8761

Sajen 9th May 2009 02:35 PM

#7
 
3 Attachment(s)
An ivory Pattani hilt from hippotamus tooth.
sajen

David 9th May 2009 05:56 PM

4 Attachment(s)
Hi Sajen. Thanks for the examples (and everyone else as well :) ) I have an ivory one that is sort of similar to yours so i made some quick shots for comparison. :)

Alam Shah 10th May 2009 11:41 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by David
I have an ivory one that is sort of similar to yours so i made some quick shots for comparison. :)
Beautiful piece, it would be nice to see the blade, though. Looks like a malela or carita blade. ;)

Sajen 10th May 2009 12:11 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by David
Hi Sajen. Thanks for the examples (and everyone else as well :) ) I have an ivory one that is sort of similar to yours so i made some quick shots for comparison. :)


Yes, agree with Alam, beautiful handle. Is it also from Hippo? Will be nice to see the complete keris.
sajen

David 10th May 2009 02:49 PM

Thanks for the comments guys. I would rather not side track this conversation with blades. Let's keep the discussion focussed on hilt forms. :)
Sajen, i must admit that i just don't know the ivory source.I can usually recognize marine ivory, but i am afraid that distinguishing between hippo and elephant is not something i am very good at. I was going to ask you how you knew yours was hippo. :shrug: :)

jonng 11th May 2009 08:11 AM

Interesting topic Shahrial, and I would like to know more too. Who coined the term "Jawa Demam" and when was it first used? Does "Jawa Demam" really refer to a sick Javanese?
These hilts sure look like some powerful all knowing ancestral squatting figures/ heroes/ gods to me rather than a sick Javanese down with the cold/ flu. The explanation that the hands are wrapped around the legs/ body because he is shivering because of his fever is rather mischievous. Could the Javanese have coined this term to mock their old rivals kerises in the past? if so, why did the people in the malay peninsular accept such a derogatory term for their hilts? Were they trying to distance themselves from their past beliefs?

David 11th May 2009 02:13 PM

Good line of questioning Jonng. I have always been told that the name refers to the posture of the abstract figure. One arm goes across the belly and the figure is bent over as if sick to his stomach. But i suppose this jester could just as easily be a bow. :shrug:
I am not convinced that the Jawa Demam is related to the squatting figures. The body positions appear quite different to me. In the squatting figures the hands are generally on the knees and they are, of course, squatting which i don't believe is the intended body position of the Jawa Demam. :shrug: :)

BluErf 11th May 2009 02:42 PM

2 Attachment(s)
I'm not sure if we will ever get satisfactory answers to this question.

Anyway, here's a hilt I got off ebay a while back. Very interesting form. Dave has a specimen which may even predate this, but I can't find pics. Maybe it is in Spirit of Wood.

Sajen 11th May 2009 05:07 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by David

Sajen, i must admit that i just don't know the ivory source.I can usually recognize marine ivory, but i am afraid that distinguishing between hippo and elephant is not something i am very good at. I was going to ask you how you knew yours was hippo. :shrug: :)



When you look to the first pic of my handle you see on the left side of his back a line of black dots, this you only can see by hippo ivory.
sajen

Sajen 11th May 2009 05:20 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BluErf
I'm not sure if we will ever get satisfactory answers to this question.

Anyway, here's a hilt I got off ebay a while back. Very interesting form. Dave has a specimen which may even predate this, but I can't find pics. Maybe it is in Spirit of Wood.



Very interesting handle, the hands rest on the knees. Never seen before by a Jawa Demam.
M. Kerner write in his book "Keris-Griffe aus Museen und Privatsammlungen" about basic position I and basic position II. Position II is when the figure crossed the arms over the breast like the Jawa Demam and position I when the hands rest on the knees like the Cirebon handles and he guess that the position I is the more old form.
sajen

jonng 11th May 2009 05:40 PM

Hi David,

That the gesture is a bow is I think probable (and could have evolved later?). That the "arm goes across the belly and the figure is bent over as if sick to the stomach" is to me a bit difficult to accept because I cannot see any in my collection or those that have been put up here having the arm going across the stomach. All of them seems to have the right arm going across the chest (or do I see them wrong?!).
Have the carvers made some mistakes in their carving or interpretation some time in the past? If not, regarding posture I often see these two:
1. squatting or sitting on something (very low) with both knees up, right elbow slightly over or resting on the right knee.
2. semi-kneeling/ half squat position, right knee up with the right elbow resting on it and left knee on the ground.
The right arm looks to be above the stomach in all these forms. Of course I could have seen them all wrong so I'm really grateful this thread came up.

Jonathan

Sajen 11th May 2009 06:51 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonng
Hi David,

That the gesture is a bow is I think probable (and could have evolved later?). That the "arm goes across the belly and the figure is bent over as if sick to the stomach" is to me a bit difficult to accept because I cannot see any in my collection or those that have been put up here having the arm going across the stomach. All of them seems to have the right arm going across the chest (or do I see them wrong?!).
Have the carvers made some mistakes in their carving or interpretation some time in the past? If not, regarding posture I often see these two:
1. squatting or sitting on something (very low) with both knees up, right elbow slightly over or resting on the right knee.
2. semi-kneeling/ half squat position, right knee up with the right elbow resting on it and left knee on the ground.
The right arm looks to be above the stomach in all these forms. Of course I could have seen them all wrong so I'm really grateful this thread came up.

Jonathan



Hello Jonathan,

from the same book is this reduced drawing of this position. So the left knee is not on the ground. The leg is more or less straight. When you see the handles from the North-East coast of Java it is correct.
sajen


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