Orientation of the grip of this keris

Jussi M. · 24th November 2008, 03:37 PM

Would you like to see my hilt? - it is reversed

Thanks,

J

Freddy · 24th November 2008, 04:01 PM

Alam Shah, you get it exactly right : the length is 22,5 cm (or 9 inches).

Fred

A. G. Maisey · 24th November 2008, 10:23 PM

Yes David, there are no absolutes.

I posted my pics of grip positions only to show that the possibilities are there. In real life situations many things can and do happen that fall outside the parameters of prescribed usage or behaviour, and this ,I am sure, is true of keris usage, as it is of many other things.

We can talk about kraton standards, and silat practices, and so on, and so on, but in days past, and faced with the many possibilities that could arise, I have no doubt at all that the men who used the keris as a weapon developed their own methodologies.

There are many other possibilities of grip that I did not show, but which can be perfect for specific situations.

David, you're perfectly correct in that an ice pick grip does reduce reach, however, to the extent that it reduces reach, it increases power. In a melee situation, as in a press of bodies in combat, the ice pick grip is the preferred grip, however, in a one on one situation, especially where combatants might not be of equal physical stature or prowess, the rapier grip can compensate for those physical shortcomings.

These days I think that perhaps we may tend to see the keris as a rather refined implement:- the "prayer in steel", and so forth, however, if we read our history, it does not take very long to realise that in the distant past it had an entirely different character, and this character was not quite so sanitised as it today.

PenangsangII · 25th November 2008, 01:58 AM

Kraton or palace is the place where this art is kept alive - in fact most of the totokromo / local customs are still being determined by the palace.

Keris came from the kraton / palace, it's where the most classic silat style still being practised (sometimes secretly to this day). No doubt that commoners would use the keris they deemed fit, but it's still against the normal tatakrama or adab of the palace's standard. So, if iwere asked which way is the most correct way to grip a keris handle, I would opt for the palace's way. Make no mistake, all the grips shown here are correct, as long as they can do the job. I am only pointing out the most correct way.

Alam Shah · 25th November 2008, 04:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

Kraton or palace is the place where this art is kept alive - in fact most of the totokromo / local customs are still being determined by the palace. Keris came from the kraton / palace, it's where the most classic silat style still being practised (sometimes secretly to this day)...

Bear in mind that thru' the ages, the arts may have evolved.. arts lost.. new ways devised.. what is practised now, may not be the way is was practiced say in the 19th or even 17th or 16th century. To me, I wouldn't be absolute about it.. whether in the Malay, Javanese or elsewhere. Just my 2 cents opinion.

PenangsangII · 25th November 2008, 06:44 AM

Agreed to certain extent.... but the palace is the source that I feel is the closest ways how the keris was wielded in the olden days. Evolved, but still maintained its originality......

A. G. Maisey · 25th November 2008, 07:44 AM

Penangsang, you are unquestionably correct, from a 20th.-21st. century perspective.

However, what we see and understand from our present perspective is not necessarily applicable to times past.

Equally, when we consider kraton practices and standards as they apply today, those practices and standards do not necessarily reflect the situation from , say, 500 years ago.

In order to understand the keris we need to broaden our studies to include history, literature, sociological and anthropological fields---at least.

I agree with you completely that at our present point in time, the various kratons are arbiters of "correctness" in many fields, however, that "correctness" can only ever extend as far as the influence of any particular kraton. Move into a different area of influence, and the standards of "correctness" can, and do, change.

How much more can those standards change when we move backwards through the dimension of time, and also through the dimension of space?

To understand the past , we need to try to adopt a mode of thought that is in harmony with the past---and that is not always the easiest thing to do.

kulbuntet · 7th December 2008, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jussi M.

Would you like to see my hilt? - it is reversed

Thanks,

J

ROFLMAO

24th November 2008, 03:37 PM	#1
Jussi M. Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 235	Would you like to see my hilt? - it is reversed Thanks, J

24th November 2008, 04:01 PM	#2
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	Alam Shah, you get it exactly right : the length is 22,5 cm (or 9 inches). Fred

24th November 2008, 10:23 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Yes David, there are no absolutes. I posted my pics of grip positions only to show that the possibilities are there. In real life situations many things can and do happen that fall outside the parameters of prescribed usage or behaviour, and this ,I am sure, is true of keris usage, as it is of many other things. We can talk about kraton standards, and silat practices, and so on, and so on, but in days past, and faced with the many possibilities that could arise, I have no doubt at all that the men who used the keris as a weapon developed their own methodologies. There are many other possibilities of grip that I did not show, but which can be perfect for specific situations. David, you're perfectly correct in that an ice pick grip does reduce reach, however, to the extent that it reduces reach, it increases power. In a melee situation, as in a press of bodies in combat, the ice pick grip is the preferred grip, however, in a one on one situation, especially where combatants might not be of equal physical stature or prowess, the rapier grip can compensate for those physical shortcomings. These days I think that perhaps we may tend to see the keris as a rather refined implement:- the "prayer in steel", and so forth, however, if we read our history, it does not take very long to realise that in the distant past it had an entirely different character, and this character was not quite so sanitised as it today.

25th November 2008, 01:58 AM	#4
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Kraton or palace is the place where this art is kept alive - in fact most of the totokromo / local customs are still being determined by the palace. Keris came from the kraton / palace, it's where the most classic silat style still being practised (sometimes secretly to this day). No doubt that commoners would use the keris they deemed fit, but it's still against the normal tatakrama or adab of the palace's standard. So, if iwere asked which way is the most correct way to grip a keris handle, I would opt for the palace's way. Make no mistake, all the grips shown here are correct, as long as they can do the job. I am only pointing out the most correct way.

25th November 2008, 06:44 AM	#6
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Agreed to certain extent.... but the palace is the source that I feel is the closest ways how the keris was wielded in the olden days. Evolved, but still maintained its originality......

25th November 2008, 07:44 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Penangsang, you are unquestionably correct, from a 20th.-21st. century perspective. However, what we see and understand from our present perspective is not necessarily applicable to times past. Equally, when we consider kraton practices and standards as they apply today, those practices and standards do not necessarily reflect the situation from , say, 500 years ago. In order to understand the keris we need to broaden our studies to include history, literature, sociological and anthropological fields---at least. I agree with you completely that at our present point in time, the various kratons are arbiters of "correctness" in many fields, however, that "correctness" can only ever extend as far as the influence of any particular kraton. Move into a different area of influence, and the standards of "correctness" can, and do, change. How much more can those standards change when we move backwards through the dimension of time, and also through the dimension of space? To understand the past , we need to try to adopt a mode of thought that is in harmony with the past---and that is not always the easiest thing to do.