Orientation of the grip of this keris

drdavid · 24th November 2008, 06:27 AM

Unusual position, that last illustration of yours Alan. Ergonomically we dont vertically load the wrist much in that position. Interestingly there has been some work on using a hiking pole in almost exactly this position with a grip not unlike the keris grip. The research suggested that it was a good position to take load in, so it is very likely you could use a keris quite efficiently with this grip.

http://www.pacerpole.com/index.html

drd

A. G. Maisey · 24th November 2008, 06:54 AM

The keris in the hand using that last position is very, very natural and comfortable. The ham of the hand is fully supported by the top of the gonjo, and it feels as I could give a blow a lot of force. In fact, this is exactly an ice-pick grip, except that the hilt does not go up through the centre of the hand.
Now, if we look at the reliefs of proto-keris at Prambanan, we see pretty much the same grip; yes, the hilts on those weapons are vertical, but the force of the blow is taken into the ham of the hand where it is supported on the gonjo.

You can deliver a blow with a lot of force using such a grip.

PenangsangII · 24th November 2008, 08:43 AM

IMHO, keris grip should be held in the most natural way, whereby the blade should be parallel to the ground and the hilt is angled about 45 degree from the gandik. You dont have to use a lot of force to penetrate your opponents abdomen or neck, but rather the palm will do the job with very less effort. Other ways could be deemed taboo in the regarded palace silat, but of course kampung folks would have other ideas. Though probably as effective, it is still considered wrong in palace ethics. I am speaking from the Malay palace point of views BTW

Jussi M. · 24th November 2008, 09:41 AM

Dont you dare to stab me on a wrong way!

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IMO this guy got it right - it´s not the style that counts, its the end result!

Thanks,

J

Freddy · 24th November 2008, 10:06 AM

Most interesting post, guys.

I've been reading and looking at the added links.

As promised, I post pictures of this keris (or Tappi as Sipakatuo pointed out) when in my hand. At first, I want to state that it's a small keris with a small handle and I have big European hands

Here is first, in my humble opinion, the best way to hold this keris. The handle, when sheathed, would point a bit to the front, away from the wearer's body.

Secondly, I put the handle in the position it was when I got this piece. I must say that, after straightening the peksi (or watting), it was easier to get a grip. Before there just wasn't enough room for my fingers. Therefore, I believe the peksi was bent by accident in the past.

I must say in this way you also get a good grip of the keris. This grip and the first one make it possible to deliver straightforward thrusts and also cuts.

Freddy · 24th November 2008, 10:07 AM

I also tried the 'ice pick' hold. The grip is in the second position. I had to grip the handle in such a way that my little finger was on the blade. My ring finger was supported by the ganja. It was a firm grip, but I wonder if my hand wouldn't be cut if I delivered a downward thrust.

Could of course be due to my big hands

Anyway, here are the last pics :

David · 24th November 2008, 01:34 PM

OK Jussi, you are just cracking me up now.

Alan and Freddy, thanks for the photo illustrations. They are most helpful in this discussion.
Yes Alan, that is exactly how i held my keris in the "ice pick" grip. It still wasn't comfortable for me, but that shouldn't stop anyone else if it suits them.

It does seem perhaps more indisputable (words chosen to avoid the absolute

) that this grip does limit the reach of the blade in action though.
Freddy makes a good point about the size of Western hands in this experiment. And your hilt does seem a bit smaller than the ones Alan and i are working with.
I can't speak to the concept of palace taboos since i don't know enough about this. It does seem to me though that went people get into a fight, especially when their life depends upon the outcome, they tend to fall back on what ever method works best for them.

Alam Shah · 24th November 2008, 02:17 PM

The keris happens to be a small keris. What is the length of the keris blade? 9" For the sheath, you would want to consider something like this, (( link )).

24th November 2008, 09:41 AM	#4
Jussi M. Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 235	Dont you dare to stab me on a wrong way! . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . IMO this guy got it right - it´s not the style that counts, its the end result! Thanks, J Last edited by Jussi M.; 24th November 2008 at 12:16 PM.

24th November 2008, 06:27 AM	#1
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 372	Unusual position, that last illustration of yours Alan. Ergonomically we dont vertically load the wrist much in that position. Interestingly there has been some work on using a hiking pole in almost exactly this position with a grip not unlike the keris grip. The research suggested that it was a good position to take load in, so it is very likely you could use a keris quite efficiently with this grip. http://www.pacerpole.com/index.html drd

24th November 2008, 06:54 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	The keris in the hand using that last position is very, very natural and comfortable. The ham of the hand is fully supported by the top of the gonjo, and it feels as I could give a blow a lot of force. In fact, this is exactly an ice-pick grip, except that the hilt does not go up through the centre of the hand. Now, if we look at the reliefs of proto-keris at Prambanan, we see pretty much the same grip; yes, the hilts on those weapons are vertical, but the force of the blow is taken into the ham of the hand where it is supported on the gonjo. You can deliver a blow with a lot of force using such a grip.

24th November 2008, 08:43 AM	#3
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	IMHO, keris grip should be held in the most natural way, whereby the blade should be parallel to the ground and the hilt is angled about 45 degree from the gandik. You dont have to use a lot of force to penetrate your opponents abdomen or neck, but rather the palm will do the job with very less effort. Other ways could be deemed taboo in the regarded palace silat, but of course kampung folks would have other ideas. Though probably as effective, it is still considered wrong in palace ethics. I am speaking from the Malay palace point of views BTW

24th November 2008, 10:06 AM	#5
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	Most interesting post, guys. I've been reading and looking at the added links. As promised, I post pictures of this keris (or Tappi as Sipakatuo pointed out) when in my hand. At first, I want to state that it's a small keris with a small handle and I have big European hands Here is first, in my humble opinion, the best way to hold this keris. The handle, when sheathed, would point a bit to the front, away from the wearer's body. Secondly, I put the handle in the position it was when I got this piece. I must say that, after straightening the peksi (or watting), it was easier to get a grip. Before there just wasn't enough room for my fingers. Therefore, I believe the peksi was bent by accident in the past. I must say in this way you also get a good grip of the keris. This grip and the first one make it possible to deliver straightforward thrusts and also cuts.

24th November 2008, 10:07 AM	#6
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	I also tried the 'ice pick' hold. The grip is in the second position. I had to grip the handle in such a way that my little finger was on the blade. My ring finger was supported by the ganja. It was a firm grip, but I wonder if my hand wouldn't be cut if I delivered a downward thrust. Could of course be due to my big hands Anyway, here are the last pics :

24th November 2008, 01:34 PM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	OK Jussi, you are just cracking me up now. Alan and Freddy, thanks for the photo illustrations. They are most helpful in this discussion. Yes Alan, that is exactly how i held my keris in the "ice pick" grip. It still wasn't comfortable for me, but that shouldn't stop anyone else if it suits them. It does seem perhaps more indisputable (words chosen to avoid the absolute ) that this grip does limit the reach of the blade in action though. Freddy makes a good point about the size of Western hands in this experiment. And your hilt does seem a bit smaller than the ones Alan and i are working with. I can't speak to the concept of palace taboos since i don't know enough about this. It does seem to me though that went people get into a fight, especially when their life depends upon the outcome, they tend to fall back on what ever method works best for them.

24th November 2008, 02:17 PM	#8
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	The keris happens to be a small keris. What is the length of the keris blade? 9" For the sheath, you would want to consider something like this, (( link )).