Strange Sumatran/Moro keris? kris? dagger? with a Dutch blade?

Rick · 12th May 2008, 12:48 AM

Hello Kai

This really strikes me as the anak alang* type of blade seen in Sumatra .
I'm not seeing much to suggest this is a peninsular blade .

Maybe I should move this thread to the warung .

Rick

*

kai · 12th May 2008, 07:13 AM

Hello Rick,

Quote:

This really strikes me as the anak alang* type of blade seen in Sumatra .
I'm not seeing much to suggest this is a peninsular blade .

These are also found on the peninsula. There seem to be minor stylistic differences but I'm not positive that Bill's blade is specifically peninsulan.

BTW, nice blade, Rick!

Quote:

Maybe I should move this thread to the warung .

I was never a fan of separating keris sundang from their cousins - seems like this piece makes an especially good case for moving all keris/kris threads to the Keris Warung Kopi...

Regards,
Kai

VVV · 12th May 2008, 08:39 AM

A difference between Rick's Sumatran blade and Bill's is the characteristic "C" close to the gandik.

Michael

Dajak · 12th May 2008, 01:41 PM

Hi guys

The problem wth VOC mark blades is that we have to be carefull

because a lot off Indonesian fake it to sell their weapons ,

but also some VOC swords where made in indonesia always difficult to tell

what is real if you don t have the provonance with it .

Ben

Jazz · 12th May 2008, 01:47 PM

Quote:

I was never a fan of separating keris sundang from their cousins - seems like this piece makes an especially good case for moving all keris/kris threads to the Keris Warung Kopi...

amen to that

Gavin Nugent · 13th May 2008, 12:32 PM

Hi Bill,

A nice unusual item with honest patina to the VOC blade.

I have been following this thread from the start when you told me of this unusual blade you had acquired. I thought it about time to throw my 2 cents worth into the ring.

Have a look at the 9th and 10th images you originally posted and where the hole is, what I see shows indications of metal being present over the top of the original blade once, the shape left on the blade much the same as one would see on a Pata, Khanda or Feranghi.

As European blades did find their way into these weapons, in my eyes, other than the Dutch trade routes, these blades could well have found their way into current existence through the acquisition of Indian weapons from the Indian mainland as Hindu heritage is found all through out the Indonesian Archipelago.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=indian+sword

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=indian+sword

regards

Gav

Bill M · 12th May 2008, 02:31 PM

Ben, you are right about provenance, but if you want to further examine things, provenance can be easily faked. We have all seen fakes even in museums and sometimes those fakes have provenance.

I have seen fakes made from old pictures of artifacts and then the piece claimed to be the same one in the picture.

So the bottom line is to do the best you can and buy what you like at a price you feel is appropriate.

Rick · 12th May 2008, 03:14 PM

HI Bill, happy Monday .

Is this blade scarf welded or has the sorsoran been split and the VOC blade inserted between the halves ?

Bill M · 12th May 2008, 04:09 PM

This is difficult to say. The obvious part of the weld looks more crude than the rest. Notice how smooth and apparently one-piece the joining of the blade and sosoran as it approaches the handle.

I am not exactly sure what you mean by "scarf welding." If you are suggesting a butt weld, or rabbited end, of the VOC blade, then welding into a notch, I don't think this applies.

It almost looks like it was made this way from the beginning. Or the sosoran could have been split and the blade inserted?

I hope to be able to connect with one of my metallurgical friends and show it to him. Maybe then I can get some better answers. Or perhaps one of the other forumites who saw this could better answer.

Lew · 12th May 2008, 05:11 PM

Here are a few examples of scarf welded blades.

Lew

Dajak · 12th May 2008, 06:01 PM

Hi Bill

By provonance I mean that it is documentated where it comes from what date and how he did get it . something like this (not an weapon but well provananched )

it is dated
place collected
and who did collected

Same one off the mandau s that where collected same time that I had wich one off the Forum member has now hanging on hiss wall .

With the real VOC stuff mostly have an provonance because it is an rare find .

I only want to tell watch out when VOC stuff is for sale .

Ben

12th May 2008, 12:48 AM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Hello Kai This really strikes me as the anak alang* type of blade seen in Sumatra . I'm not seeing much to suggest this is a peninsular blade . Maybe I should move this thread to the warung . Rick * Attached Images

13th May 2008, 12:32 PM	#6
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Hi Bill, a few ideas about the mystery Hi Bill, A nice unusual item with honest patina to the VOC blade. I have been following this thread from the start when you told me of this unusual blade you had acquired. I thought it about time to throw my 2 cents worth into the ring. Have a look at the 9th and 10th images you originally posted and where the hole is, what I see shows indications of metal being present over the top of the original blade once, the shape left on the blade much the same as one would see on a Pata, Khanda or Feranghi. As European blades did find their way into these weapons, in my eyes, other than the Dutch trade routes, these blades could well have found their way into current existence through the acquisition of Indian weapons from the Indian mainland as Hindu heritage is found all through out the Indonesian Archipelago. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=indian+sword http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=indian+sword regards Gav Last edited by freebooter; 14th May 2008 at 02:37 AM.

12th May 2008, 04:09 PM	#9
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	This is difficult to say. The obvious part of the weld looks more crude than the rest. Notice how smooth and apparently one-piece the joining of the blade and sosoran as it approaches the handle. I am not exactly sure what you mean by "scarf welding." If you are suggesting a butt weld, or rabbited end, of the VOC blade, then welding into a notch, I don't think this applies. It almost looks like it was made this way from the beginning. Or the sosoran could have been split and the blade inserted? I hope to be able to connect with one of my metallurgical friends and show it to him. Maybe then I can get some better answers. Or perhaps one of the other forumites who saw this could better answer. Attached Images

12th May 2008, 05:11 PM	#10
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Here are a few examples of scarf welded blades. Lew Attached Images

12th May 2008, 06:01 PM	#11
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Hi Bill By provonance I mean that it is documentated where it comes from what date and how he did get it . something like this (not an weapon but well provananched ) it is dated place collected and who did collected Same one off the mandau s that where collected same time that I had wich one off the Forum member has now hanging on hiss wall . With the real VOC stuff mostly have an provonance because it is an rare find . I only want to tell watch out when VOC stuff is for sale . Ben Attached Images

12th May 2008, 08:39 AM	#3
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	A difference between Rick's Sumatran blade and Bill's is the characteristic "C" close to the gandik. Michael

12th May 2008, 01:41 PM	#4
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Hi guys The problem wth VOC mark blades is that we have to be carefull because a lot off Indonesian fake it to sell their weapons , but also some VOC swords where made in indonesia always difficult to tell what is real if you don t have the provonance with it . Ben

12th May 2008, 02:31 PM	#7
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Ben, you are right about provenance, but if you want to further examine things, provenance can be easily faked. We have all seen fakes even in museums and sometimes those fakes have provenance. I have seen fakes made from old pictures of artifacts and then the piece claimed to be the same one in the picture. So the bottom line is to do the best you can and buy what you like at a price you feel is appropriate.

12th May 2008, 03:14 PM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	HI Bill, happy Monday . Is this blade scarf welded or has the sorsoran been split and the VOC blade inserted between the halves ?