Strange Sumatran/Moro keris? kris? dagger? with a Dutch blade?

[asomotif]

Congrats Bill !
These pictures are better than the ones you had before.

Also nice to see the size next to a normal sized Moro keris.

The makers of this keris picked only a very small piece of a VOC blade.
VOC swords where not very big/heavy but certainly bigger that what remains within this hybrid keris.

Normally VOC markings are not placed under the tang. So This hole is not a original hole for attaching the hilt.

By the way, this reminds me of a thread by Antonio Cejunior, where he introduced a contemperary Moro / Tanto hybrid knife.
Some forumites where pretty nasty on his creation.

In this case the maker of this odd Sumatra / Moro / VOC mix is not amongst us. That must be the reason of absent criticism. not ?

[DhaDha]

Nothing to add.
Just: COOL.

[David]

Hey Bill, Thanks for showing us yet another fantastic and unusal blade. You really must have me over sometime for tea (which i will unobtrusively slip a very strong sleeping preparation into ).
hmmm....did i just think that or did i actually say it out loud?

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by asomotif

The makers of this keris picked only a very small piece of a VOC blade.VOC swords where not very big/heavy but certainly bigger that what remains within this hybrid keris.

Normally VOC markings are not placed under the tang. So This hole is not a original hole for attaching the hilt.

I think that I need to make a picture of what I am asking to better clarify my question.

I am not suggesting the VOC marking was underneath the hilt, but that it was adjacent to, but just above the hilt. In this case the hilt would have covered the hole while also covering the numbers.

Originally Posted by asomotif

By the way, this reminds me of a thread by Antonio Cejunior, where he introduced a contemporary Moro / Tanto hybrid knife.
Some forumites where pretty nasty on his creation.

Antonio makes some beautiful art. Enough said. And, I like him and his passion for art.

Originally Posted by asomotif

In this case the maker of this odd Sumatra / Moro / VOC mix is not amongst us. That must be the reason of absent criticism. not ?

Well, you know he may be lurking somewhere, ready to spring from some darkened niche! Dressed as a Sumatran/Moro, yelling in Dutch!


And thanks David. Two ferocious dogs and a lion guard this!

I am suggesting that the blade started off as either a dagger, or the blade was broken off and a tip reground.

OK I have tried to be more explicit. See picture below where I have (crudely) drawn a black hilt on this (leaving a space to show the location of the hole). Maybe, just maybe, it could have had a rivet????



Does anyone have any idea about what was the blade configuration before this was made?

[DaveS]

Bill: Albert an I did see this blade at the Eugine Knife Show. Congratulations on a great find. This is the kind of thing that comes along sometimes once in a collecters liftime. I was going to buy it until i found out the price. I thought it was a little steep so i passed. Kinda sorry i did. Oh well........at least its still in the "family"............Dave.

[kai]

Hello Bill,

Congrats again - this is really a unique combo! While the VOC blade got recycelt, I'd guess that the bahari-like gonjo as well as the Malay keris sundang hilt were crafted for this piece.

The numbers visible on your kris are the last 2 digits of the year - if you ever get access to a specialized lab, I'm fairly confident that the hidden century (1?46) can be revealed!

Actually, the markings of VOC blades are not close to the hilt - the hole is certainly not original to the European blade; I also see no reason for a keris/kris to have this hole. I don't think this is much of a distraction - pieces of history tend to be not in mint condition...

Here's a recent thread showing 2 badik with recycled VOC blades:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6291

I'm attaching the relevant blade pics below:




Regards,
Kai

[kai]

2nd try...

(Pics courtesy of Alan and Dominique.)

[Bill M]

Thank you DaveS and Kai. Phillip Tom also saw it.

Dave, in the unlikely event I ever let it go, I will let you know first.

Especially thanks to Kai for the explanation of the VOC markings on the blade. I really have no problem with the hole in the blade, just curiosity.

If only these pieces could talk! What stories!

Kai, what kind of specialized lab would find the missing digit?

[asomotif]

Well, you know he may be lurking somewhere, ready to spring from some darkened niche! Dressed as a Sumatran/Moro, yelling in Dutch!

Well Bill,

I like tribal art and tribal weapons because every object is different and indeed it makes one curious for the past of an object.

In that aspect this is one of the most interesting pieces i have ever seen.

Once more congrats !

Best regards,
Willem

[Battara]

Yes this is a fascinating puppy - almost got it when I saw here in Louisville....

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by Battara

Yes this is a fascinating puppy - almost got it when I saw here in Louisville....

GOD! This piece has gotten around more than my ex-wife!!

But thanks, all. It is an interesting piece. Should I go hang it on a nail?

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by asomotif

Well Bill,

I like tribal art and tribal weapons because every object is different and indeed it makes one curious for the past of an object.

In that aspect this is one of the most interesting pieces i have ever seen.

Once more congrats !

Best regards,
Willem

Thanks, Willem,

I have two Batak swords I'll be posting soon. I bet that you like at least ONE of them also!

[David]

Originally Posted by asomotif

By the way, this reminds me of a thread by Antonio Cejunior, where he introduced a contemperary Moro / Tanto hybrid knife.
Some forumites where pretty nasty on his creation.
In this case the maker of this odd Sumatra / Moro / VOC mix is not amongst us. That must be the reason of absent criticism. not ?

I actually see a great deal of difference between Antonio's hybrid knife and this piece. I don't feel that it was the makers intention here to create a hybrid mixing of cultural currents. He was merely making due, for what ever reason, with materials at hand to create a blade that is for all intensive purposes a traditional kris/keris. He may have used the VOC blade because it was taken from an enemy, because he lacked a good source of iron, because .... well, fill in the blank as you wish, we will never actually know. Even so, Dutch and Indonesian cultures where brought together, for better or for worse and it was inevitable that there would be some sharing of form and ideas. Take a look at the European motifs that were adopted by the Madurese in some of their hilt forms for just one example.
My complaint about Antonio's creation is that it brought together two entirely different cultural forms for no apparent reason. There was no historical logic to it for me. And for the record i don't believe that i or any of the other forumites who didn't care for this arbitrary hybrid expressed that in a "nasty" way. We just didn't care for it while a good number of others did seem to like it. We are all free to express such opinions here i believe. That the creator of Bill's kris is long dead has no issue for me. It seems to me to be a true expression of a historical mixing of cultures created in an acceptable (for me) traditional manner to serve as an authentic ethnographic weapon.

[Lew]

Bill

I have a keris in my collection that has weld in the center of the blade. There is a weld just to left of that blackened patch.The half to the left of the weld has no trace of pamor but to the right I can see a pattern. Will try and get a clearer pic to post. I remember a story about some of the Malay or Indonesian smiths that were forging keris and tombak from harder steel minus the pamor it made the steel tougher and was able to defeat the body armor that the Dutch were using at the time? Anyone here of this lore besides me?

Btw when I draw this keris from it's scabbard it produces a lovely ringing tone like a tuning fork .

Lew

[Rick]

The more I look at this piece the more I see a very strange Sumatran keris masquerading as a Moro piece .

If we removed the handle and blade stirrup what would we have ?

I'd love to know where this composite blade was forged .

Bill, do we have a blade length ?

[kai]

Hello Rick,

The more I look at this piece the more I see a very strange Sumatran keris masquerading as a Moro piece .

Nobody here suggested it to be a Moro piece (and I doubt the seller would care to distinguish between a Malay keris sundang and a Moro kris even if this were a full-sized blade!).

If we removed the handle and blade stirrup what would we have ?

The scabbard as well as the sorsoran could as well be from the Malay Peninsula AFAIK; the VOC blade does suggest a Sumatran origin though.

I'd love to know where this composite blade was forged .

Me too!

Bill, do we have a blade length ?

Overall length - 48 cm or 19"
Blade width - 2.4 cm or 7/8"
blade length - 35 cm or 13 3/4"
Thickness of blade at handle - 1.4 cm or 1/2"
Handle length - 11 cm or 4 3/8"
Width at ganga - 7 cm or 2 1/2"

Regards,
Kai

[Rick]

Hello Kai

This really strikes me as the anak alang* type of blade seen in Sumatra .
I'm not seeing much to suggest this is a peninsular blade .

Maybe I should move this thread to the warung .

Rick

*

[kai]

Hello Rick,

This really strikes me as the anak alang* type of blade seen in Sumatra .
I'm not seeing much to suggest this is a peninsular blade .

These are also found on the peninsula. There seem to be minor stylistic differences but I'm not positive that Bill's blade is specifically peninsulan.

BTW, nice blade, Rick!

Maybe I should move this thread to the warung .

I was never a fan of separating keris sundang from their cousins - seems like this piece makes an especially good case for moving all keris/kris threads to the Keris Warung Kopi...

Regards,
Kai