Strange Sumatran/Moro keris? kris? dagger? with a Dutch blade?

Newsteel · 9th May 2008, 01:34 AM

Congratulation for having one very rare keris. Very strong peninsular Malaysia influence. As VVV mentioned, it has a close resemblance of Sumatran keris panjang/anak alang or bahari at the sosoran and greneng (base) and no kembang kacang. Could it suggest a 'kapit' blade ??? fusing 2 pieces of blade metal??? Very interesting.

Bill M · 9th May 2008, 03:00 AM

Thanks for the compliments!

I wonder about the hole through the blade? Just below the VOC. Could this be the hilt of the original blade where a rivet or some attachment pin came though?

Lew · 9th May 2008, 03:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

Thanks for the compliments!

I wonder about the hole through the blade? Just below the VOC. Could this be the hilt of the original blade where a rivet or some attachment pin came though?

Bill

I'm afraid the hole may have been drilled into the blade for mounting and display purposes

I have an old African sword with a hole in the blade and hilt where some previous owner used it to mount on a wall.

Still a very nice kris Congrats.

Lew

Bill M · 9th May 2008, 03:04 PM

Lew,

This is certainly a possibility and I have seen pieces with holes made for hanging the piece on a wall.

However I am curious about the possibility of it being a rivet hole. I am not familiar with VOC blades, so I would like to pose a few questions for those people who have studied them.

How far from the VOC marking is the hilt, usually?

Is it near the hilt or further up the blade? In some swords, like kaskaras, the markings (crescents) are a distance from the handle.

Most others have them near the handle. This is why I am suggesting that the blade and tang could a major part of the blade we see here.

Why are there numbers and a difference in the blade showing a fuller-like depression below the hole?

This could also indicate the numbered part with the "fuller-like depression is part of the original tang, enclosed by a handle, and is now part of the blade.

No big deal either way. I am just curious.

asomotif · 9th May 2008, 04:49 PM

Congrats Bill !
These pictures are better than the ones you had before.

Also nice to see the size next to a normal sized Moro keris.

The makers of this keris picked only a very small piece of a VOC blade.
VOC swords where not very big/heavy but certainly bigger that what remains within this hybrid keris.

Normally VOC markings are not placed under the tang. So This hole is not a original hole for attaching the hilt.

By the way, this reminds me of a thread by Antonio Cejunior, where he introduced a contemperary Moro / Tanto hybrid knife.
Some forumites where pretty nasty on his creation.

In this case the maker of this odd Sumatra / Moro / VOC mix is not amongst us. That must be the reason of absent criticism. not ?

DhaDha · 9th May 2008, 05:21 PM

Nothing to add.
Just: COOL.

David · 9th May 2008, 06:11 PM

Hey Bill, Thanks for showing us yet another fantastic and unusal blade. You really must have me over sometime for tea (which i will unobtrusively slip a very strong sleeping preparation into

).
hmmm....did i just think that or did i actually say it out loud?

Bill M · 9th May 2008, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

The makers of this keris picked only a very small piece of a VOC blade.VOC swords where not very big/heavy but certainly bigger that what remains within this hybrid keris.

Normally VOC markings are not placed under the tang. So This hole is not a original hole for attaching the hilt.

I think that I need to make a picture of what I am asking to better clarify my question.

I am not suggesting the VOC marking was underneath the hilt, but that it was adjacent to, but just above the hilt. In this case the hilt would have covered the hole while also covering the numbers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

By the way, this reminds me of a thread by Antonio Cejunior, where he introduced a contemporary Moro / Tanto hybrid knife.
Some forumites where pretty nasty on his creation.

Antonio makes some beautiful art. Enough said. And, I like him and his passion for art.

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

In this case the maker of this odd Sumatra / Moro / VOC mix is not amongst us. That must be the reason of absent criticism. not ?

Well, you know he may be lurking somewhere, ready to spring from some darkened niche! Dressed as a Sumatran/Moro, yelling in Dutch!

And thanks David. Two ferocious dogs and a lion guard this!

I am suggesting that the blade started off as either a dagger, or the blade was broken off and a tip reground.

OK I have tried to be more explicit. See picture below where I have (crudely) drawn a black hilt on this (leaving a space to show the location of the hole). Maybe, just maybe, it could have had a rivet????

Does anyone have any idea about what was the blade configuration before this was made?

DaveS · 9th May 2008, 11:23 PM

Bill: Albert an I did see this blade at the Eugine Knife Show. Congratulations on a great find. This is the kind of thing that comes along sometimes once in a collecters liftime. I was going to buy it until i found out the price. I thought it was a little steep so i passed. Kinda sorry i did. Oh well........at least its still in the "family"............Dave.

kai · 9th May 2008, 11:23 PM

Hello Bill,

Congrats again - this is really a unique combo! While the VOC blade got recycelt, I'd guess that the bahari-like gonjo as well as the Malay keris sundang hilt were crafted for this piece.

The numbers visible on your kris are the last 2 digits of the year - if you ever get access to a specialized lab, I'm fairly confident that the hidden century (1?46) can be revealed!

Actually, the markings of VOC blades are not close to the hilt - the hole is certainly not original to the European blade; I also see no reason for a keris/kris to have this hole. I don't think this is much of a distraction - pieces of history tend to be not in mint condition...

Here's a recent thread showing 2 badik with recycled VOC blades:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6291

I'm attaching the relevant blade pics below:

Regards,
Kai

kai · 9th May 2008, 11:33 PM

2nd try...

(Pics courtesy of Alan and Dominique.)

David · 11th May 2008, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

By the way, this reminds me of a thread by Antonio Cejunior, where he introduced a contemperary Moro / Tanto hybrid knife.
Some forumites where pretty nasty on his creation.

In this case the maker of this odd Sumatra / Moro / VOC mix is not amongst us. That must be the reason of absent criticism. not ?

I actually see a great deal of difference between Antonio's hybrid knife and this piece. I don't feel that it was the makers intention here to create a hybrid mixing of cultural currents. He was merely making due, for what ever reason, with materials at hand to create a blade that is for all intensive purposes a traditional kris/keris. He may have used the VOC blade because it was taken from an enemy, because he lacked a good source of iron, because .... well, fill in the blank as you wish, we will never actually know. Even so, Dutch and Indonesian cultures where brought together, for better or for worse and it was inevitable that there would be some sharing of form and ideas. Take a look at the European motifs that were adopted by the Madurese in some of their hilt forms for just one example.
My complaint about Antonio's creation is that it brought together two entirely different cultural forms for no apparent reason. There was no historical logic to it for me. And for the record i don't believe that i or any of the other forumites who didn't care for this arbitrary hybrid expressed that in a "nasty" way. We just didn't care for it while a good number of others did seem to like it. We are all free to express such opinions here i believe. That the creator of Bill's kris is long dead has no issue for me. It seems to me to be a true expression of a historical mixing of cultures created in an acceptable (for me) traditional manner to serve as an authentic ethnographic weapon.

Lew · 11th May 2008, 09:36 PM

Bill

I have a keris in my collection that has weld in the center of the blade. There is a weld just to left of that blackened patch.The half to the left of the weld has no trace of pamor but to the right I can see a pattern. Will try and get a clearer pic to post. I remember a story about some of the Malay or Indonesian smiths that were forging keris and tombak from harder steel minus the pamor it made the steel tougher and was able to defeat the body armor that the Dutch were using at the time? Anyone here of this lore besides me?

Btw when I draw this keris from it's scabbard it produces a lovely ringing tone like a tuning fork

.

Lew

9th May 2008, 11:33 PM	#11
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	2nd try... (Pics courtesy of Alan and Dominique.) Attached Images

11th May 2008, 09:36 PM	#13
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Bill I have a keris in my collection that has weld in the center of the blade. There is a weld just to left of that blackened patch.The half to the left of the weld has no trace of pamor but to the right I can see a pattern. Will try and get a clearer pic to post. I remember a story about some of the Malay or Indonesian smiths that were forging keris and tombak from harder steel minus the pamor it made the steel tougher and was able to defeat the body armor that the Dutch were using at the time? Anyone here of this lore besides me? Btw when I draw this keris from it's scabbard it produces a lovely ringing tone like a tuning fork . Lew Attached Images Last edited by LOUIEBLADES; 11th May 2008 at 10:17 PM.

9th May 2008, 01:34 AM	#1
Newsteel Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 132	Congratulation for having one very rare keris. Very strong peninsular Malaysia influence. As VVV mentioned, it has a close resemblance of Sumatran keris panjang/anak alang or bahari at the sosoran and greneng (base) and no kembang kacang. Could it suggest a 'kapit' blade ??? fusing 2 pieces of blade metal??? Very interesting.

9th May 2008, 03:00 AM	#2
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Thanks for the compliments! I wonder about the hole through the blade? Just below the VOC. Could this be the hilt of the original blade where a rivet or some attachment pin came though?

9th May 2008, 03:04 PM	#4
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Lew, This is certainly a possibility and I have seen pieces with holes made for hanging the piece on a wall. However I am curious about the possibility of it being a rivet hole. I am not familiar with VOC blades, so I would like to pose a few questions for those people who have studied them. How far from the VOC marking is the hilt, usually? Is it near the hilt or further up the blade? In some swords, like kaskaras, the markings (crescents) are a distance from the handle. Most others have them near the handle. This is why I am suggesting that the blade and tang could a major part of the blade we see here. Why are there numbers and a difference in the blade showing a fuller-like depression below the hole? This could also indicate the numbered part with the "fuller-like depression is part of the original tang, enclosed by a handle, and is now part of the blade. No big deal either way. I am just curious.

9th May 2008, 04:49 PM	#5
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,228	Congrats Bill ! These pictures are better than the ones you had before. Also nice to see the size next to a normal sized Moro keris. The makers of this keris picked only a very small piece of a VOC blade. VOC swords where not very big/heavy but certainly bigger that what remains within this hybrid keris. Normally VOC markings are not placed under the tang. So This hole is not a original hole for attaching the hilt. By the way, this reminds me of a thread by Antonio Cejunior, where he introduced a contemperary Moro / Tanto hybrid knife. Some forumites where pretty nasty on his creation. In this case the maker of this odd Sumatra / Moro / VOC mix is not amongst us. That must be the reason of absent criticism. not ?

9th May 2008, 05:21 PM	#6
DhaDha Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 176	Nothing to add. Just: COOL.

9th May 2008, 06:11 PM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Hey Bill, Thanks for showing us yet another fantastic and unusal blade. You really must have me over sometime for tea (which i will unobtrusively slip a very strong sleeping preparation into ). hmmm....did i just think that or did i actually say it out loud?

9th May 2008, 11:23 PM	#9
DaveS Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 327	Bill: Albert an I did see this blade at the Eugine Knife Show. Congratulations on a great find. This is the kind of thing that comes along sometimes once in a collecters liftime. I was going to buy it until i found out the price. I thought it was a little steep so i passed. Kinda sorry i did. Oh well........at least its still in the "family"............Dave.