Dutch - VOC Blade - HELP! needed

Jim McDougall · 27th April 2008, 07:24 AM

Rick! I burst out laughing on that one!!!!!LOL JUDL!!!
I've been plowing through stuff for hours and once as I gasped, the forbidden thread came up on the google search I had on.
I think that will be forever the thread of all time.

As I regain my composure, I will share with Amuk what I have found

Apparantly little detailed information exists on arms and armor production in the Netherlands, but centers existed in Antwerp, Bruges, Ghent and Tournai in Flanders. It seems that they did import large portion of arms and armor from Italy and Germany.
ref: "Famous Makers and European Centers of Arms and Armor Production", Dirk H. Breiding, Metropolitan Museum of Art, "Timeline of Art History" 2000.

There would have been considerable examples of Spanish and Italian rapier forms c.1600, and for more military use, these were primarily the German imports. These would have been heavy bladed 'Sinclair sabre' types of sabres with shellguards and varying forms of developing basket style hilts, some with heavy straight blades.
In "Blanke Wapens:Nederlandse slag-en steekwapens sinds 1600" J.P.Puype, 1981, some of these are discussed, however since my Dutch is 'nada'

I cant relay much.

As far as the VOC, the firm was officially formed in 1602, the blades on the swords would not have of course had any particular regulation as far as I would imagine. The officers of course would have worn most likely rapiers as noted of Italian or Spanish form, while other ranks or individuals would have used the military swords of the time. I have not yet found at what point the VOC markings might have begun to appear on blades, but I would not expect them to appear as property type stamps until much later, and even then, not on the officers weapons.

FYI....the in house LOL at the beginning here concerns a thread about a VOC sword that just about drove us all nuts over a period of several years! It was the thread that would not die! ....Shaver Kool!!

Sorry Rick! I just had to 'splain it'.

All the best,
Jim

Amuk Murugul · 27th April 2008, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

....the in house LOL at the beginning here concerns a thread about a VOC sword that just about drove us all nuts over a period of several years! It was the thread that would not die! ....Shaver Kool!!

....

Jim

Hullo Jim,

I just read your post.
Thank you again.

Yes, I, too, have been initiated into the quest for the enigmatic 'SHAVER COOL'.(ROTFLPIMP!!

))
As I remember, I tried many different approaches. I finally put it in the ' to be investigated in the not-too-soon future'.

I actually inspected different blades with the same marks.
My last try was to see whether it could've been manufactured by SHAVER GOOL (Both being Germanic names, given the shifting borders at the time and Shaver having evolved from Schaeffer).

Best.

Amuk Murugul · 30th April 2008, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

....... I have not yet found at what point the VOC markings might have begun to appear on blades, but I would not expect them to appear as property type stamps until much later, and even then, not on the officers weapons.....

Hullo everybody

,

Jim,

I think I have a photo of a VOC sword somewhere in my photo archives. It's from about 1675, marked with VOC, the year and the arms of Amsterdam.
I can't remember where I got the photos from. If there are no copyright issues, I'll look for them and post.

Best.

Andrew · 30th April 2008, 02:24 PM

I have no shame.

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000140.html

Mark · 30th April 2008, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

I have no shame.

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000140.html

It was inevitable ...

PS: Supreme kampilans rule! "Look out, Charlie!"

Jim McDougall · 30th April 2008, 08:06 PM

Auuugghhh!!! OK you guys.....all that therapy shot!!!! back to the nightmares .....shaver kool shaver kool shaver kool!!!!!

Amuk Murugul · 28th June 2008, 12:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amuk Murugul

Hullo everybody

,

Jim,

I think I have a photo of a VOC sword somewhere in my photo archives. It's from about 1675, marked with VOC, the year and the arms of Amsterdam.
I can't remember where I got the photos from. If there are no copyright issues, I'll look for them and post.

Best.

Hullo everybody,

I finally found the photos, but no source ref. I'll post anyway and ask for forgiveness in not getting permission first.

Best.

M ELEY · 28th June 2008, 05:07 PM

Hmmm... Well, now you have picqued my curiosity. I have an old shortsword/hanger, carved tropical wood hilt with a pattern exactly matching a museum Dutch smallsword of known VOC use (the museum sword is Singhalese-made with ivory hilt). Mine is of much more primative-styling, but I always suspected that mine was likewise made for the Dutch East India Company (my sword dates to around the Anglo-Dutch War of 1660-70 in Ceylon). I bring this up because the only marking I have on mine is a series of 4 dots/punches in a diamond pattern almost exactly as appears on your blade near the VOC marking. Could this be a forgotten/lost marking associated with the Company? Interesting...

RhysMichael · 28th June 2008, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Mine is of much more primative-styling, but I always suspected that mine was likewise made for the Dutch East India Company (my sword dates to around the Anglo-Dutch War of 1660-70 in Ceylon). I bring this up because the only marking I have on mine is a series of 4 dots/punches in a diamond pattern almost exactly as appears on your blade near the VOC marking. Could this be a forgotten/lost marking associated with the Company? Interesting...

Just a thought could the VOC markings have been copied by local smiths, similar to the half moon marks or assad allah signature ?

M ELEY · 28th June 2008, 10:48 PM

You're got an excellent point there. Yes, that easily could have been the case. Still, this hanger isn't something that I would imagine the average Singhalese warrior in the 17th century would have wanted to carry. The hilt is in the Dutch taste, the grip in the form of the standing Singhalese lion, the protruding guard a crouching hunting dog, the quillons dragon heads and the blade of typical hanger fashion. These hilt patterns were indeed coming out of Ceylon at the time, but for the Dutch market (thus, the ivory smallsword with the exact same hilt pattern). I know the kastane has some of these specifics, but the blade on mine even has 3 fullers and the blade has been painted/stained with a brown primer, something very common for swords that went to sea. Likewise, hangers were very popular with sailors due to their short working-length.
The diamond pattern on the sword being discussed (and on mine) as mentioned in the past is found on some Dutch "dump" coins of the 18th century, BUT the same pattern is found on early (1st Century A.D.) Singhalese coins as well. Because it seems Shri Lanka and Dutch cultures have intermingled during the spice trade years much as the British/Indian and Spanish/Philippine cultures, I might never get an answer

. Still, I'm not trying to take away attention from this piece to focus on mine, just thinking aloud. Wish someone could post a pic of a Dutch Dump with this marking on it, may shed some light on Dutch markings on swords...

chevalier · 30th June 2008, 12:40 AM

i have a link pertaining to this subject:

http://cgi.ebay.com/17th-Century-VOC...QQcmdZViewItem

its a "buy it now" item, VOC blade marked with the year 1619.

it looks alot like a piso podang to me............

27th April 2008, 07:24 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,668	Rick! I burst out laughing on that one!!!!!LOL JUDL!!! I've been plowing through stuff for hours and once as I gasped, the forbidden thread came up on the google search I had on. I think that will be forever the thread of all time. As I regain my composure, I will share with Amuk what I have found Apparantly little detailed information exists on arms and armor production in the Netherlands, but centers existed in Antwerp, Bruges, Ghent and Tournai in Flanders. It seems that they did import large portion of arms and armor from Italy and Germany. ref: "Famous Makers and European Centers of Arms and Armor Production", Dirk H. Breiding, Metropolitan Museum of Art, "Timeline of Art History" 2000. There would have been considerable examples of Spanish and Italian rapier forms c.1600, and for more military use, these were primarily the German imports. These would have been heavy bladed 'Sinclair sabre' types of sabres with shellguards and varying forms of developing basket style hilts, some with heavy straight blades. In "Blanke Wapens:Nederlandse slag-en steekwapens sinds 1600" J.P.Puype, 1981, some of these are discussed, however since my Dutch is 'nada' I cant relay much. As far as the VOC, the firm was officially formed in 1602, the blades on the swords would not have of course had any particular regulation as far as I would imagine. The officers of course would have worn most likely rapiers as noted of Italian or Spanish form, while other ranks or individuals would have used the military swords of the time. I have not yet found at what point the VOC markings might have begun to appear on blades, but I would not expect them to appear as property type stamps until much later, and even then, not on the officers weapons. FYI....the in house LOL at the beginning here concerns a thread about a VOC sword that just about drove us all nuts over a period of several years! It was the thread that would not die! ....Shaver Kool!! Sorry Rick! I just had to 'splain it'. All the best, Jim

30th April 2008, 02:24 PM	#4
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	I have no shame. http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000140.html

30th April 2008, 08:06 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,668	Auuugghhh!!! OK you guys.....all that therapy shot!!!! back to the nightmares .....shaver kool shaver kool shaver kool!!!!!

28th June 2008, 05:07 PM	#8
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,204	Hmmm... Well, now you have picqued my curiosity. I have an old shortsword/hanger, carved tropical wood hilt with a pattern exactly matching a museum Dutch smallsword of known VOC use (the museum sword is Singhalese-made with ivory hilt). Mine is of much more primative-styling, but I always suspected that mine was likewise made for the Dutch East India Company (my sword dates to around the Anglo-Dutch War of 1660-70 in Ceylon). I bring this up because the only marking I have on mine is a series of 4 dots/punches in a diamond pattern almost exactly as appears on your blade near the VOC marking. Could this be a forgotten/lost marking associated with the Company? Interesting...

28th June 2008, 10:48 PM	#10
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,204	You're got an excellent point there. Yes, that easily could have been the case. Still, this hanger isn't something that I would imagine the average Singhalese warrior in the 17th century would have wanted to carry. The hilt is in the Dutch taste, the grip in the form of the standing Singhalese lion, the protruding guard a crouching hunting dog, the quillons dragon heads and the blade of typical hanger fashion. These hilt patterns were indeed coming out of Ceylon at the time, but for the Dutch market (thus, the ivory smallsword with the exact same hilt pattern). I know the kastane has some of these specifics, but the blade on mine even has 3 fullers and the blade has been painted/stained with a brown primer, something very common for swords that went to sea. Likewise, hangers were very popular with sailors due to their short working-length. The diamond pattern on the sword being discussed (and on mine) as mentioned in the past is found on some Dutch "dump" coins of the 18th century, BUT the same pattern is found on early (1st Century A.D.) Singhalese coins as well. Because it seems Shri Lanka and Dutch cultures have intermingled during the spice trade years much as the British/Indian and Spanish/Philippine cultures, I might never get an answer . Still, I'm not trying to take away attention from this piece to focus on mine, just thinking aloud. Wish someone could post a pic of a Dutch Dump with this marking on it, may shed some light on Dutch markings on swords...

30th June 2008, 12:40 AM	#11
chevalier Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 119	i have a link pertaining to this subject: http://cgi.ebay.com/17th-Century-VOC...QQcmdZViewItem its a "buy it now" item, VOC blade marked with the year 1619. it looks alot like a piso podang to me............