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Author Topic:   Please help me identify this sword.
Mikey
Member
posted 05-16-2000 18:28     Click Here to See the Profile for Mikey   Click Here to Email Mikey     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I am looking for help on finding info on this sword. The blade is 25 1/2" long, and has the name " Shaver Cool V.O.C." and "Batavia" on it. Also on the blade and the hilt(i think is what it's called) it has a emblem with the letter's VOC and a old sail ship inscribed on it.The pommel, I thought was an eagles head, but now have been told, it could be a European beast of some sort.Please look at the pic and let me know what you think.Any info will be greatly appreciated.

Or view a less compressed version here

[This message has been edited by Lee Jones (edited 05-16-2000).]

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Rick
EEWRS Staff
posted 05-16-2000 21:24     Click Here to See the Profile for Rick   Click Here to Email Rick     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Mikey, a couple of pieces of information about your sword; V.O.C. are the initials for the Dutch East India Company .
Batavia was the Capital of the Dutch East Indies and is located in western Java ; the city is now known as Jakarta. The inclusion of a ship on the guard would suggest it to possibly be a naval sword. The figure on the pommel certainly looks like a Gryphon and may be the basis for the hilt form of a sword type peculiar to Ceylon (Sri Lanka) known as a Kastane. I do not think this particular example is a Kastane; I mention it in passing due to the Gryphon's head on your sword.
My guess; a Dutch Naval sword possibly manufactured in Java. Anyone else want to weigh in on this intriguing sword ?

[This message has been edited by Rick (edited 05-16-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Rick (edited 05-16-2000).]

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Jim McDougall
EEWRS Staff
posted 05-16-2000 22:53     Click Here to See the Profile for Jim McDougall   Click Here to Email Jim McDougall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This sword certainly does appear 'naval'and of latter 19th c. form, but usually the pierced guard would have a fouled anchor incorporated in the fretwork.The head is indeed a gryphon, popular in heraldic motif.
As this does appear to be a military form sword, it is important to note that the lion head was favored by most countries for the pommel, with the exception of eagleheads usually favored by the U.S. as well as Mexico.
The gryphon would seem more likely fall outside the 'regulation' pattern swords and I wonder if the heraldic association might apply more to a fraternal application. Since the suggestion of the Dutch East India Co. exists with the familiar V.O.C. acronym, I checked J.P. Puype "Blanke Wapens", 1981 and found only one naval sword with similar guard whch has the fouled anchor and a lion head pommel. This was a Dutch naval officers sabre M1882 (fig.249, p.113) and of course could not have anything to do with the Dutch East India Co. which dissolved in 1798.
The term 'shaver cool V.O.C.' seems very colloquial ..and I wonder if the 'Batavia' could refer to a ships name?
Is the V.O.C. stamped in the hilt?
I cant quite make out the ship on the blade, is that the stern of one of the old East India ships?

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Jim McDougall
EEWRS Staff
posted 05-16-2000 23:07     Click Here to See the Profile for Jim McDougall   Click Here to Email Jim McDougall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This sword certainly does appear 'naval'and of latter 19th c. form, but usually the pierced guard would have a fouled anchor incorporated in the fretwork.The head is indeed a gryphon, popular in heraldic motif.
As this does appear to be a military form sword, it is important to note that the lion head was favored by most countries for the pommel, with the exception of eagleheads usually favored by the U.S. as well as Mexico.
The gryphon would seem more likely fall outside the 'regulation' pattern swords and I wonder if the heraldic association might apply more to a fraternal application. Since the suggestion of the Dutch East India Co. exists with the familiar V.O.C. acronym, I checked J.P. Puype "Blanke Wapens", 1981 and found only one naval sword with similar guard whch has the fouled anchor and a lion head pommel. This was a Dutch naval officers sabre M1882 (fig.249, p.113) and of course could not have anything to do with the Dutch East India Co. which dissolved in 1798.
The term 'shaver cool V.O.C.' seems very colloquial ..and I wonder if the 'Batavia' could refer to a ships name?
Is the V.O.C. stamped in the hilt?
I cant quite make out the ship on the blade, is that the stern of one of the old East India ships?

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Mikey
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posted 05-16-2000 23:52     Click Here to See the Profile for Mikey   Click Here to Email Mikey     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for replying, Rick and Jim. Jim, the VOC and the ship is both stamped on the hilt and on the blade.
If you could see the picture of the ship real good, it looks like your looking at the front of it, just off to an angle just a little bit.You can also see the sails on it. If I remember right, there was a ship named Batavia that I think was owned by the VOC.Thanks for your help.

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Jan
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posted 05-17-2000 02:25     Click Here to See the Profile for Jan   Click Here to Email Jan     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi !
The BATAVIA was a VOC ship which sank near Western Australia in 1629. http://www.mm.wa.gov.au/Museum/march/department/batavia.html
A replica has been build in the Dutch city of Lelystad.

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Lee Jones
EEWRS Staff
posted 05-17-2000 06:07     Click Here to See the Profile for Lee Jones   Click Here to Email Lee Jones     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'd opine that the sword is 19th century and therefore a bit late for the Batavia which wrecked in 1629, but I would wonder if the Shaver Cool might be a ship's name, the VOC the owner (Dutch East India Co.) and Batavia (Jakarta) the hope port? Just speculation.

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Rick
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posted 05-17-2000 09:33     Click Here to See the Profile for Rick   Click Here to Email Rick     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
About Shaver Cool , I swear that I've seen that name on other Blades, in particular one for auction some several months ago; possibly with a Kastane style of hilt; Perhaps they were contractors for the V.O.C.
The size seems correct for a naval blade; not too large for close quarters.
Could we see the piece in its entirety ?

[This message has been edited by Rick (edited 05-17-2000).]

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Paul de Souza
Senior Member
posted 05-17-2000 20:19     Click Here to See the Profile for Paul de Souza   Click Here to Email Paul de Souza     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi,

If the blade is 19th century as Lee thinks it is, then it cannot be VOC. The VOC was dissolved in 1799 because of bad debts.

Anyway, the VOC cypher or monogramme is a big V with the "O" superimposed on the left stem of the V and the "C" on the other. I have seen this on the old cannons in Malacca. However, the coat of arms of the VOC does include a sailing ship.

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Jim McDougall
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posted 05-17-2000 20:34     Click Here to See the Profile for Jim McDougall   Click Here to Email Jim McDougall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
As noted, the Batavia was an East Indiaman which sank off the coast of Australia in 1629. Apparantly, this particular event was significant for some rather unusual situations aboard that ship. More details are apparantly available in "The Batavia Mutineers" by P.Tyler (History Today, Vol.22 #10,1972,pp.706-715). This simply seems important if the 'Batavia' does indeed refer to a ship in an apparantly commemorative sense. Again, as this hilt form corresponds with forms of the mid to late 19th c. this would seem to be the case. As the V.O.C. or Verenigde Oostindische Compagnie, was dissolved in 1799, this sword would not have been made for them. However, adopting these letters and the ship marking in a trademark sense would seem plausible for an outfitting firm of later date.
We need to know more about'shaver cool' .

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Rick
EEWRS Staff
posted 05-17-2000 21:06     Click Here to See the Profile for Rick   Click Here to Email Rick     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Of course! Please forgive the stupidity of your moderator for suggesting that Shaver Cool could have been contractors for the V.O.C.; somebody slap me quick :-).Could this sword then be a reproduction dating to the 19th Cent. ? There was, I'm sure, a tourist trade in Java at that time.

[This message has been edited by Rick (edited 05-17-2000).]

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Mikey
Member
posted 05-17-2000 23:16     Click Here to See the Profile for Mikey   Click Here to Email Mikey     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi everyone, thanks your input. I just put a picture of the entire sword and a picture of the monogram VOC, on my homepage.I will try to get them on here too. I hope this will help you all..thanks..Mikey

[This message has been edited by Lee Jones (edited 05-18-2000).]

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Jim McDougall
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posted 05-17-2000 23:31     Click Here to See the Profile for Jim McDougall   Click Here to Email Jim McDougall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Rick,
There's nothing stupid about presenting hypothetical possibilities while we're all trying to put together this puzzle. I checked several sources to find out exactly how long the V.O.C. actually existed, and frankly even though dissolved in 1799, that doesnt mean that contractors or factories in colonial regions dissolved, at least not immediately.At this point, I'm still inclined to think this sword is somewhat commemorative,and I dont think its any kind of reproduction, or anything to do with tourist trade. The idea of an outfitter or contractor using V.O.C. in a trademark sense seems to fall somewhat in line with your suggestion, even though not specifically for the original company per se.

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Jan
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posted 05-18-2000 02:45     Click Here to See the Profile for Jan   Click Here to Email Jan     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hello,
another resource on the VOC : http://library.thinkquest.org/26488/en/index.html
1.Yes, the sign on the blade looks like the actual VOC logo.
2.One of the history chapters on that page says something about the VOC logo still being used after its end by quite a few of the associated companies.

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Lee Jones
EEWRS Staff
posted 05-18-2000 19:37     Click Here to See the Profile for Lee Jones   Click Here to Email Lee Jones     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just bringing this topic to the head of the list after fixing the photo in a previous post.

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Scott Bubar
Senior Member
posted 05-19-2000 20:21     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Bubar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Good evening, folks.

I've been following this thread with considerable interest.

I referred Mikey to this site (and to SwordForum's A & M forum) from his posting at NetSword because I wasn't getting terribly far with his sword, there was a dearth of responses there, and because I've been tremendously impressed with the breadth and depth of edged-weapons knowledge of the members here.

You can see my initial responses to Mikey's hanger, and some comments by Peter Morwood here (I'm Sikandur):

http://netsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000480.html

Since I'm strictly an amateur at this, I'd like, if I may, to ask a couple of questions for my own edification.

They relate to the dating of the sword (or the sword that served as the model for a reproduction, if this should prove to be the case).

Lee felt that the sword belongs to the nineteenth century, and Jim the mid to late nineteenth century.

Frankly when I first viewed Mikey's pictures (the first set) and saw the backstrap, "nineteenth century" flashed through my mind as well.

Perhaps swayed by a wish to place it within the VOC period, I thought, "well, there are a number of late eighteenth century examples of military swords with a similar backstrap configuration."

There is also a sort of general resemblance of the hilt as a whole to nineteenth century examples.

To get to the point, my questions are:

1) What are the features of the hilt that incline towards a nineteenth century dating?

2) Do you see anything that would necessarily exclude a late eighteenth century date?

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Lee Jones
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posted 05-20-2000 06:03     Click Here to See the Profile for Lee Jones   Click Here to Email Lee Jones     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Scott, I guess I'd best prefix this by admitting that swords of this period are really outside of the time frame I usually pay attention to. In the bit of teaching I do in conjunction with my day job, it is often difficult to extract criteria from the rapid gestalt judgements that pop up, and this database is far less disiplined.

The beast-head pommel could well be late 18th century, although I could not exclude a carryover into the 19th. The same for the grip, which seems to also be in pretty good condition for the 19th century and remarkable for the 18th. The pierced guard seems to have a sort of sheet metal quality which gives me a later 19th century feel, although this could go into the 20th. But, my knowledge of this time and place is not so good as to exclude late 18th century.

The little bit of the blade I see seems flat and unfullered and the corrosion pattern on the bottom photo is more reminiscent of a modern steel than I'd expect for the 18th century.

The nature of the "sailing ship" inscription, the cross-section of the blade and grain of the steel are all significant parts of the puzzle which I do not have.

Do I know for sure? No, and I very well would not confidently know even if I could hold the sword in my hands.

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Rick
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posted 05-20-2000 18:32     Click Here to See the Profile for Rick   Click Here to Email Rick     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Lee, you have taken the words right out of my mouth about this piece. I guess I would add that the guard looks too light to have been a true "Naval Issue" piece. I also get the impression that the hilt and guard decorations are stamped rather than engraved which makes me suspect that it is a commerative piece. I've still got a feeling that this could be a late 19th century souvenir as many of the more recent Tjikeroeh pieces may also be.
Java had to have been a tourist destination for Dutch Nationals after the advent of steam and iron ships.

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Jim McDougall
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posted 05-20-2000 22:15     Click Here to See the Profile for Jim McDougall   Click Here to Email Jim McDougall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I agree with Lee and Rick's assessments of this sword and feel this is a commemorative product of the 19th c.
The swords used by 18th c European naval officers were typically smallswords for dress and various forms of hanger that evolved from hunting swords for fighting use.These usually had some form of decorative shellguard which often extended over the blade forte, and the swords usually had a knucklebow. However, these swords did not seem to have the same type of semi-basket hand protection often seen on cavalry swords in the 18th c. Presumably, this much enclosure (as in basket hilts)may have been thought restrictive in close quarters deck combat.
At the end of the 18th c.and beginning of 19th more hand protection was sought, and the familiar sheet steel guards came into use for the rank and file. Eventually, the naval officers swords followed the 'gothic hilt' form seen on British infantry officers swords (M1822) with a swept semi-basket hand guard, usually of cast brass and usually with a fouled anchor device.These became recognized in regulation status c.1850's although they had been in use since c.the 1820's.
As Rick has noted, the pierced guard appears stamped, certainly a latter 19th c. characteristic. Also, military hilts were typically cast and gilt brass.
As we have discussed, the idea of the Dutch East India VOC, stamped into a sword, which appears to have commemorative characteristics
has also a pommel figure not typically seen on military swords. As far as I have seen, military hilts seem to favor lionheads or as previously noted, eagleheads, rather than a gryphon. It is possible that there may be exceptions of course, but resources on the naval patterns of many countries are scarce.
Again, the gryphon is associated more with the heraldic bestiary and goes nicely with the gothic motif in favor in 19th c.and seems more likely for the civilian sector.

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Mikey
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posted 05-21-2000 17:02     Click Here to See the Profile for Mikey   Click Here to Email Mikey     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi everyone, thanks for your comments.Just wanted to let you know that the guard looks like it has been cut out with some sort of saw blade. You can see real fine teeth marks(going in different directions) where it has been cut. All of the designs look to be stamped with a hand stamp, and not engraved.

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Scott Bubar
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posted 05-21-2000 18:15     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Bubar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for your comments, Lee. I believe I see what you're saying, and it's been a helpful clarification.

I like your idea of the sword being commemorative, Jim. Before Mikey posted his pictures at NetSword, I had understood (misunderstood) him to say that there was an English "and" in the inscription, which would pretty well have ruled out an original Dutch origin. I speculated that it might be a 20th century commemorative sword, perhaps related to the excavation of the Batavia in Australia in the 1970's.

My only problem with the idea of a commemorative sword is this: One might expect dates on a commemorative sword. (i.e. "V.O.C. 1602-1902", or something of the sort)

Mikey--thanks for your additional comments. I've noticed that in the inscription and VOC logos, there seems to be a sort of doubling of the lines, as if they were stamped twice.

Is there any possibility that there are additional marks that might alter "Shaver Cool"--this is a real stumper, and perhaps the key clue.

Aslo, if it's not too much trouble, would you be able to post a side view of the sword in its entirety? The blade is intriguing, but it is difficult to tell what it looks like from the angle of the image above.

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Jim McDougall
EEWRS Staff
posted 05-21-2000 21:30     Click Here to See the Profile for Jim McDougall   Click Here to Email Jim McDougall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Scott,
Good point re: the inclusion of dates in a commemorative sword, that would definitely be indicative of such a sword. Possibly this may be a sword made by one of the former VOC contractors,in line with Ricks suggestion, using the old stamps. It would seem plausible that an older Dutch naval officer, possibly involved in fraternal group (cf.the G.A.R. after the Civil War) may have had such a sword made? The inscription is still the puzzle..what the heck is 'shaver cool'?
Every time I look at that...I keep thinking of 'Burma Shave'!! :-
Rick, that mention you made of that term appearing somewhere, possibly on a kastane type sword? The kastane's of the 18th c. frequently had dated V.O.C. blades on them.

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Rick
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posted 05-21-2000 22:28     Click Here to See the Profile for Rick   Click Here to Email Rick     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Jim et al, I know that I've seen that name on another blade from the area; it was on a sword for auction on ebay; the blade was fullered and swept in a similar style as Mike's and as I remember it had a Kastane style hilt and guard. A name such as Shaver Cool is hard to forget once seen. I'm guessing that it is the name of a manufacturer of bladed weapons. I would think that the only way to really tie this question up would be to find Dutch Colonial records of contractors or arms makers of that era from the East Indies and that would seem a daunting task. The Batavia marking seems to me to refer more to the place of manufacture rather than the vessel itself because if it referred to the V.O.C. ship I would think that it would appear on the guard rather than directly under the Shaver Cool name on the blade.
Unfortunately this is all anecdotal evidence and not hard fact.

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Mikey
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posted 05-22-2000 01:10     Click Here to See the Profile for Mikey   Click Here to Email Mikey     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks again for everyone's input. Scott, there is some doubling and some of the lines and curves do not match up. As far as Shaver Cool, I dont think it could be anything else.
There seems to be some kind of letters in between the guard and the VOC emblem, but I cant make any of them out, but maybe a S.

How about the scabbard?Would that help out on a date?Its made of leather with the few brass piece's and the bottom part is missing.

I will try to get some more picture's on here or on my page later. Thanks all.

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Mikey
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posted 05-22-2000 02:22     Click Here to See the Profile for Mikey   Click Here to Email Mikey     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
OK, I just put up some new pictures on my web page.Hopefully these will help out.Thanks
http://hometown.aol.com/suttonhere/myhomepage/photo.html

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Rick
EEWRS Staff
posted 05-22-2000 10:00     Click Here to See the Profile for Rick   Click Here to Email Rick     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for the new pictures Mike, I'm still of the opinion that the guard is "too light to fight" with. On closer observation the handle and pommel do look as though they may be cast; I can't really tell; can you?
I think the answer to Shaver Cool lies somewhere in the V.O.C. museum in Amsterdam. I am not a member of Thinkquest; Jan's site posted earlier;
http://library.thinkquest.org/26488/en/index.html

and am unable to access the search service at the site; the fact that I don't speak Dutch doesn't help either. They do have a page on swords; I was not able to access it.

[This message has been edited by Rick (edited 05-22-2000).]

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Rick
EEWRS Staff
posted 05-22-2000 17:36     Click Here to See the Profile for Rick   Click Here to Email Rick     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Look what I found !
http://www.pacificcollection.com/index.php3?page=541&prod_no=86


I think we've got an answer.

[This message has been edited by Rick (edited 05-22-2000).]

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Jim McDougall
EEWRS Staff
posted 05-22-2000 17:53     Click Here to See the Profile for Jim McDougall   Click Here to Email Jim McDougall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Rick!
Outstanding! Looks like a reproduction of our Shaver Cool mystery piece....definitely evidence of a form of that region! Your idea of manufacture by a V.O.C. factory or maker in that region after the demise of the original V.O.C. seems well founded. Now if we could just get hold of that museum!

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Scott Bubar
Senior Member
posted 05-22-2000 19:47     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Bubar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Great find, Rick.

This certainly bolsters the case for there being an original type which may have been in common use.

The "Shaver Cool" thing has really been bugging me, as I'm sure it has some of you. I've been unable to turn up anything meaningful on it.

I did have a thought about it, however, which seems so ridiculous that I'm hesitant to put it out, but will anyway, in the interest of brainstorming.

Shaver is, I believe, a Dutch (I don't know Dutch, but almost feel like I do after viewing dozens of Dutch sites over the last few days) name, as well as an English name.

The most likey explanation is that a gentleman named Shaver started, or started with a Mr. Cool, a company whose name appears on the blade. Or, that it's a ship's name as Lee suggests, or possibly the name of a military unit (the VOC extensively used mercenaries, and the units were often named after the commander).

However, as Peter Morwood pointed out on the NetSword thread, Shaver would have been pronounced something like "shaaver, or shaever".

My thought (which I cannot substantiate at all) is: What if this were an old Dutch spelling for Java?

After all, if a Dutchman pronounced Java as it is written, they would have to say (I think) "yah-va" or "yaa-va", rather than how we pronounce Java.

(I'm lacking diacritical marks since the rather clunky "Character Map" utility on my computer bit the bullet.)

Certainly the English spelling in colonial times here in America was often phonetic.

As far as the "er," I recall that in my part of the world (New England) it used to be common for people to add an "r" to the end of a word that ended, in its written form, in "a."

The word that most comes to mind is "idea" pronounced as "idee-er". This has become far less common over the last several decades.

Just a thought.

[This message has been edited by Scott Bubar (edited 05-22-2000).]

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Rick
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posted 05-22-2000 21:08     Click Here to See the Profile for Rick   Click Here to Email Rick     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Scott, I'm a "Yankee" myself . As an aside here; did you know that the term Yankee is , in fact, a derivative from the Dutch meaning John Cheese ?
I think that you all may have missed my point here; unfortunately, I'm coming to the conclusion that Mike's sword may actually be a souvenir and not even 19th century. Handicrafts from Indonesia can often have the same basic form modified by subtle differences such as the scroll on the end of the Quillon as is presented on Mike's sword. The sword for sale on the Pacific website is in no way a Dyak piece and I've got a sneaking suspicion that one could order a dozen such pieces from them.
I would like to add that this is a totally
intuitive feeling on my part, and I sincerely hope to be proven wrong.
In the limited years that I have been collecting weapons from this area I have been slowly coming to the conclusion that there are many pieces that are artificially aged and passed off as genuine antiques.
Shaver Cool may well be a legitimate old manufacturing company that produced swords for the V.O.C.; that fact would only make the name more useable in the reproduction business. After all , what was the name that was supposed to be found on the best scottish Claymore swords; Andrea Ferrara?
As I remember it was used by many manufacturers to enhance their product sales.
I'd love to be proved wrong in this assumption . Someone has to find out about Shaver Cool.

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Scott Bubar
Senior Member
posted 05-22-2000 21:34     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Bubar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi, Rick.

I completely agree with you that one could order a dozen pieces from the site you found, and I think they imply as much when they state: "NOTE:
Due to the very uniqueness of this item, the item purchased may differ marginally in appearance from the one pictured."

This in spite of the fact that they have been referring to the sword in the singular, and claim that it "could be" up to sixty years old.

It could also be, and likely is, "hot off the press," along with its brethren.

The significance of your find for me is that it points to a type that they consider worth reproducing, and offers fairly good evidence that there was such a type, which has been in question (at least for me) until now.

The question, as I see it as this point, is what was the identity of the original type, and how does Mikey's sword relate to it.

I agree that Shaver Cool is probably the key.

Any of you have any Dutch connections, preferably with an East Indian personal or family background?

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Jim McDougall
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posted 05-22-2000 22:54     Click Here to See the Profile for Jim McDougall   Click Here to Email Jim McDougall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Rick ,
I agree, weapon investigation is largely subjective, and often simply the feel or something in the appearance of a weapon tells you other than what is broadly assumed.
The reproduction item on the site is a flimsy,poorly made likeness of the sword that Mikey has. What you say about a maker using the VOC marks as a statement of quality cf.Andrea Ferrara et al is very plausible, and a factory that earlier made swords for them would still have the original stamps used.
Although Mikey's sword is obviously very light compared to fighting swords, it is of a type associated more with dress. I'm wondering about 'souvenier' possibilities..
the sword does seem well made, I wonder if a ceremonial sword also may be a possibility.
Scott, I think your deductive approach with reference to language and semantics has very distinct possibilities. The key to those words may well be in translation.....I have addresses to sources in the Netherlands, but writing takes so long..as yet, no email contacts.

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Mikey
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posted 05-22-2000 23:46     Click Here to See the Profile for Mikey   Click Here to Email Mikey     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi everyone, thanks again for all of your effort's.I checked the sword on the site, and it does look like it is alot cheaper made, but the pictures aren't that good either. Mine seems to have finer detail on head and on the wings(or mane)down the handle.Also mine has a 25 1/2" blade, and that one say's it's about 31". But who know's, like the ad say's, they could differ.

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Richard
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posted 05-23-2000 03:41     Click Here to See the Profile for Richard   Click Here to Email Richard     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I am wondering what the grip is made of? This could give a clue as to whether it is old(er) or not.

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Richard
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posted 05-23-2000 04:08     Click Here to See the Profile for Richard   Click Here to Email Richard     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just another thought on the linguistics. Could "SHAVER COOL" be some sort of "Pidgin"? e.g. "Pidgin" English to the East in PNG etc. Altho' this doesn't sound like Pidgin English is there a Pidgin Dutch?
Has anybody asked Pacific Collection if it means anything to them?

[This message has been edited by Richard (edited 05-23-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Richard (edited 05-23-2000).]

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Mark Bowditch
Senior Member
posted 05-23-2000 10:53     Click Here to See the Profile for Mark Bowditch   Click Here to Email Mark Bowditch     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
My sister happens to live in Amsterdam. I asked her to try and find out something about Shaver Cool, perhaps at the VOC museum. Since its the middle of the week, and she does have a job, I'm not optimistic of an answer immediately, but hopefully she can dig up something.

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Jan
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posted 05-23-2000 11:47     Click Here to See the Profile for Jan   Click Here to Email Jan     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi !
Tried to find out more about SHAVER COOL, but no serious results .I might have found a few hints though, including another few personal guesses :
1. Yes, I think "Shaver" is a Dutch last name. It does not seem to be very common, but I found it on some Dutch genealogy web site. http://home-2.consunet.nl/~cb000446/vis.htm
Itīs on the list of family names deriving from the VIS family, if I understand it right. The last paragraph of the introduction mentions that the profession of "smid" = smith was remarkably often found among the members of this family.
2. Checked several old Dutch books on the VOC at the University library here today, all dating from 1850 to 1942. No "Shaver" at first glance, but there was an expensive old copy of the 4 Volume work "Oud Batavia" , published by the "Bataviaasche Genootschap", the legal follow-up to the VOC. These books were published to commemorate the 300th anniversary of Dutch Batavia in 1919. Maybe too late, but could this be the commemorative event we are looking for ?
3. COOL could be the partner of Mr. Shaver, or it might be some old Dutch abbrevation for the company status. All those V.O.COmpanie, COOpmann (= merchant),etc. in the old books just made me wonder .

Waiting for help from Amsterdam !

[This message has been edited by Jan (edited 05-24-2000).]

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Mikey
Member
posted 05-23-2000 23:49     Click Here to See the Profile for Mikey   Click Here to Email Mikey     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi everyone, thanks for you all putting your time and effort in this sword. I know it takes hours and hours to look up some of the stuff you all have found.I really appreciate it.

Richard, or anyone...can you tell me how to find out what the grip is made of. It looks like bone to me, but as you all know, i'm sure not an expert. Thanks alot!

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Richard
Senior Member
posted 05-24-2000 14:29     Click Here to See the Profile for Richard   Click Here to Email Richard     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I am writing as a interested amateur rather than an expert but as the grip appears to be white I would have thought there are three likely materials, ivory, bone & plastic.
Ivory is not usually a bright white, usually creamy or even slightly browny\yellow. It usually polishes very well but if you look reasonably closely you can see a grain. A sword would normally have to be of good quality to have an ivory grip.
Bone is normally coarser than ivory. your grip seems to be fairly deeply rebated to take the wire binding and I would think here it would cut across the grain making it more difficult to take a polish and you could see this.
Plastic, of course, can be made in imitation of ivory, or even bone and so can be difficult to tell.
The point being that if you could determine that the grip was ivory you could be reasonably sure you have a good quality and probably old sword. If it is plastic it is obviously modern and if it is bone it could be either!
I am told, and I suggest (indeed hope) other people will weigh in here that if you heat a needle or pin and push it in to plastic it will enter whereas ivory & bone will still provide a resistance. However I wouldn't attempt this until some of the forums experts concur, or dismiss the idea.

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Rick
EEWRS Staff
posted 05-24-2000 16:55     Click Here to See the Profile for Rick   Click Here to Email Rick     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Agreed on the red hot pin test Richard. Mike, find an unobtrusive place on the material, preferably where it runs under one of the metal fittings; if the hot pin penetrates the material then it's plastic.

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