Nice real old one from Bali

David · 17th October 2007, 03:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

In fact, none of the stones in this handle are particularly valuable, there is a fair bit of gold in the handle, but the thing that sets it apart from other Balinese gold handles is the standard of workmanship:- three different authorities in this field of art have appraised it as the finest work in any gold Balinese handle that they have seen; I myself have never seen any better work. I believe it is probably one of the finest, if not the finest, Balinese keris hilt in existence.

Yes, i think i must agree. Of course i have never had the pleasure of examining anything of this quality in person as i am sure you have Alan. But if you look at the photo in Jessup's book the quality really shines through. If anyone doubts this i really recommend you find this book. Unfortunately the photos in this thread do not do it any justice.

A. G. Maisey · 17th October 2007, 03:23 AM

Yeah, the one shown in Jessup undoubtedly has much more value in the stones, and the workmanship in the handle (ie, ignoring the wrongko) is also excellent. I think you'd probably need the two handles, side by side, in the hand to make a judgement on which one has the superior workmanship. I know that I have never seen a handle of this type that is of as good quality workmanship as the one I posted pics of, and apparently neither had the three art authorities who appraised it. Actually, when you get into this area of quality, there are very few pieces with which to make comparison.

David · 17th October 2007, 02:28 PM

Sorry Alan, my bad....i thought you were referring to the one in Jessup that started this thread. I now realize that you meant the example that you linked to. Yeah, it would be a tough call to decide which one of these 2 hilts was actually the better one. I certainly couldn't choose based on the pictures alone.

A. G. Maisey · 17th October 2007, 10:14 PM

David, whenever we try to evaluate any really superior art work we are faced with this problem. It is not just the quality of the work, or the intrinsic value of the components, it is a certain intangible that only becomes apparent when we are actually face to face with the work in question.

Most often we don't even understand why one piece has a higher impact than the other.

So at this level it does not become just a matter of deciding which expression of art is superior to the other in terms of workmanship, technical excellence and intrinsic value, it becomes a matter of trying to understand which piece of art will have the deepest effect on the greatest number of people. Which piece will worm its way into the sub-conscious and strike a chord.

Seldom does the power and essence of great art make itself felt through a photograph.

Marcokeris · 19th October 2007, 01:56 PM

Alan from your picture the handle seems to me a pretty gold handle with a very common subject with a face and body not so expressive (...of course from pictures). About the work's precision the pictures are not so accurate to understand the quality of work.
In my opinion is not gold or "lost wax" to determinate the "soul" of an object but it is the inner power that the artist is able to input in his work.
Of course is better to see a nice hilt made by uli emas, rhino horn, uli hijau, uli putith, amber, ecc... ecc...) than common material.

For example this my Rawana's brother Bali hit is made by a common poor material (like brass) with real poor stones (amethysts, onyx, moon and star stones) but, in my opinion, it (he) has a great expressive force not only in the face but also in the muscles of body.

A. G. Maisey · 21st October 2007, 01:22 PM

Marco, I beg your forgiveness, but I am afraid I am unable to understand exactly what you mean in your post commenting on the relative artistic qualities of the handle of which you have provided a photo, and the gold handle of which I posted some pictures.

I do not understand:- "--- uli emas, -------------, uli hijau, uli putith, ---"

I do not understand your comment:- "---In my opinion is not gold or "lost wax" to determinate the "soul" of an object---".

I cannot understand your comparison of the handles made by court goldsmiths to the Raja of Klungkung, and the Raja of Badung, with the recently made handle of some other material that has been made for the popular market, and of which you have provided a photo.

I freely admit that I may be a little stupid in my lack of understanding, but I would truly appreciate it if you could expand your comments in order to assist my understanding of just what it is that you trying to say.

Thank you for your consideration.

David · 22nd October 2007, 04:14 AM

Sorry Marco, i am afraid i share Alan's confusion. I am having a hard time putting your example in the same room as the other hilts being discussed here.
Here is another Bali gold hilt i find interesting from the Adrien Noe collection.

19th October 2007, 01:56 PM	#5
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	Alan from your picture the handle seems to me a pretty gold handle with a very common subject with a face and body not so expressive (...of course from pictures). About the work's precision the pictures are not so accurate to understand the quality of work. In my opinion is not gold or "lost wax" to determinate the "soul" of an object but it is the inner power that the artist is able to input in his work. Of course is better to see a nice hilt made by uli emas, rhino horn, uli hijau, uli putith, amber, ecc... ecc...) than common material. For example this my Rawana's brother Bali hit is made by a common poor material (like brass) with real poor stones (amethysts, onyx, moon and star stones) but, in my opinion, it (he) has a great expressive force not only in the face but also in the muscles of body. Attached Images Last edited by Marcokeris; 19th October 2007 at 02:07 PM.

22nd October 2007, 04:14 AM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Sorry Marco, i am afraid i share Alan's confusion. I am having a hard time putting your example in the same room as the other hilts being discussed here. Here is another Bali gold hilt i find interesting from the Adrien Noe collection. Attached Images

17th October 2007, 03:23 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Yeah, the one shown in Jessup undoubtedly has much more value in the stones, and the workmanship in the handle (ie, ignoring the wrongko) is also excellent. I think you'd probably need the two handles, side by side, in the hand to make a judgement on which one has the superior workmanship. I know that I have never seen a handle of this type that is of as good quality workmanship as the one I posted pics of, and apparently neither had the three art authorities who appraised it. Actually, when you get into this area of quality, there are very few pieces with which to make comparison.

17th October 2007, 02:28 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Sorry Alan, my bad....i thought you were referring to the one in Jessup that started this thread. I now realize that you meant the example that you linked to. Yeah, it would be a tough call to decide which one of these 2 hilts was actually the better one. I certainly couldn't choose based on the pictures alone.

17th October 2007, 10:14 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	David, whenever we try to evaluate any really superior art work we are faced with this problem. It is not just the quality of the work, or the intrinsic value of the components, it is a certain intangible that only becomes apparent when we are actually face to face with the work in question. Most often we don't even understand why one piece has a higher impact than the other. So at this level it does not become just a matter of deciding which expression of art is superior to the other in terms of workmanship, technical excellence and intrinsic value, it becomes a matter of trying to understand which piece of art will have the deepest effect on the greatest number of people. Which piece will worm its way into the sub-conscious and strike a chord. Seldom does the power and essence of great art make itself felt through a photograph.

21st October 2007, 01:22 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Marco, I beg your forgiveness, but I am afraid I am unable to understand exactly what you mean in your post commenting on the relative artistic qualities of the handle of which you have provided a photo, and the gold handle of which I posted some pictures. I do not understand:- "--- uli emas, -------------, uli hijau, uli putith, ---" I do not understand your comment:- "---In my opinion is not gold or "lost wax" to determinate the "soul" of an object---". I cannot understand your comparison of the handles made by court goldsmiths to the Raja of Klungkung, and the Raja of Badung, with the recently made handle of some other material that has been made for the popular market, and of which you have provided a photo. I freely admit that I may be a little stupid in my lack of understanding, but I would truly appreciate it if you could expand your comments in order to assist my understanding of just what it is that you trying to say. Thank you for your consideration.