Algerian dagger?

Pertinax · 1st August 2025, 03:20 PM

I evaluate everything adequately and it is not for nothing that I quoted K. Lacoste. She does not have an answer to the question about the size of the dagger handles.

I will also add - any knife and dagger, in addition to combat use, is used for purely domestic needs, and therefore must be convenient to use. This is not observed here, beautiful - yes, but extremely inconvenient in practical use.

That is why I would like to see a dagger before 1850.

werecow · 2nd August 2025, 04:25 AM

I'm not sure what you're saying. I'm telling you my experience... I can assure you that a 7cm hilt is probably usable for me and easily enough for a younger version of me. Admittedly I'm relatively short for a Dutch guy but in international circles I'm about average in size. Maybe I have tiny hands, but it's never come up.

Pertinax · 2nd August 2025, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by werecow

I'm not sure what you're saying. I'm telling you my experience... I can assure you that a 7cm hilt is probably usable for me and easily enough for a younger version of me. Admittedly I'm relatively short for a Dutch guy but in international circles I'm about average in size. Maybe I have tiny hands, but it's never come up.

I am talking about the practical use of such a knife. Yes, judging by the photo, your palm fits into the handle, but the pommel will not allow manipulation of the knife.

When using any knife, the palm slides (moves) freely along the handle. In this case, the palm is rigidly fixed by the pommel. And when manipulating, the palm will inevitably shift to the pommel, which has sharp edges and will lead to injury.

That is why I had a question about these daggers (knives) - is this a souvenir?

werecow · 2nd August 2025, 10:04 PM

So, out of curiosity, I stabbed into a few thick cardboard targets (the box of a recent acquisition

) with moderate force with my specimen and that at least seems fine. In fact, despite being quite angular, I find that it is actually pretty comfortable to hold. I held it with my thumb and index finger pinching the part near the bolster and my pinky snugly against the pommel. The pommel fits well in the palm of my hand that way and prevents my hand from moving during use.

Perhaps I would experience what you describe if I stabbed it with more force into more durable materials, but I don't want to risk damaging the tip (or my hands, obviously), and I don't have any targets that would be suitable in my home at the moment.

Of course, I can't really comment on the effect of having a shorter grip as I don't have one of that length, so perhaps that would make all the difference.

fennec · 3rd August 2025, 02:41 AM

(Again, ok Im a blacksmith, ok algerian and self proclamed specialist (lol), but I still can absolutely wrong on what is coming, so only my theories... )

Well Yuri, for me, yours is clearly a weapon.
But first STRAIGHT Flissa daggers, with my "smith" eye, are all, weapons, in the willing and style of made, even those made for deco, let me explain....
Those are effective tools, "SOLID", and respecting the exact same way of making than any knife, and in this case, even for a long flissa. For me, the principal point, is the bolster. Nobody want to forge a such thing, going from a thick piece of steal, heating it, lenghten it, inlay it, etc... just for deco. There is absolutely no reason for to add yourself such a work, but the solidity of the object. And you gonna tell "ok, but all straight daggers have that bolster"... And I will say yes, so those are weapons ..

BUT, we all know here that lot of them where sold for tourists, so how really make a difference ? We can not... in my tought, even the Kabyle jewelers from Ath Yeni tribe, copied that style as the "right way of making".. Even when some "curved" model without bolster was also made, just by cutting a steel sheat. So know, how it was in those shops ? May be just the price was different, and may what was initially a weapon, became something deco, and losts most of ist initial caracteristics, as for many cultural things in north africa, or anywhere (ex. moukahla, horses sadles, stirrups, etc).

Now yours. So if we cant really know if a model is a weapon, or not, we just have to look it, a make a choice. I mean, the steal is the same (usually), the deco too, so it probably only depend on the smith skills, the sharpness (even if, those are not made to slash, but to thrust, kabyle like "rasors" for slashing, as known by the saddly name "kabyle smile") etc. And what I see on your is a particularly well made one, the tip looks very agressive, really made by some who was thinking to its use. The deco are also for me a good info. contrary to what some people think, for me, as more as the inlays are qualitative, as more as the "weapon" is good, and not a deco. For ex, all those fake curved daggers without bolster, display the same, like just one line inlayed, and few engravings, and not deep.

Now the handles...
ALGERIANS, NOT DUTCH

Not the same hands

I mean, of course there was a lot of "big" algerians, but as everybody know, we, human, was a bit smaller the past centuries. If you add to that the general tall of mediterannean people, AND, a probable heritage for that mersurement, that came for earlier that period, 10cm (yeah, personnaly count 10cm, from the bolster, to the end of pommel), is a quite good/sufficient leght.

10CM is actually a standard in algerian weapons, that I found a lot, even for longer swords, a lot of flissa, nimcha, etc. Sometime only the pommel is a bit bigger, but same surface for the hand.
Here is a picture of the handle of one of my daggers, comparing to two yatagan, and one sudanese kaskara. See that the difference is imperceptible.
Then, this is a thrusting dagger, so even the pommel is "useless" and can be hold by the two last fingers, despite blocking the hand as for a nimcha.

The two second pictures are from what I call "flissa dagger" (well, in french I call those symetric models "dagues", and the straight ones "poignard"/knife flissa... it help me making differences). For me, those ones are mostly decorative.. but not all (as for curved ones). I presume that those models are probably herited from real used weapons, and became to begin trash with time (ps.. note the similarities with some serbian daggers from sarajevo in the 19th). As for others flissa daggers, I judge by the "weapon" quality, by its making. I think, that probaly both could be sold by the same guy, as just two different quality of knives, even if one is clearly a toy...
Notice that big bolster, when the other is just "cut" in a steel plate, have a little nail as tang, etc..

Then, is just a simple flissa knife of mine probably french era. Just interessant because of its conception, purely usefull (dont judge by its shiny look, it had been restored, but its quite old). Look at this "file" steel blade, that keeps its marks, and the very simple handle. No decoration at all, because just of the hardness of this steel comparing to local ones, or just the guy dont know how.
PS... this one is still very, very sharp !
However, this model is interessant because it seems that such knives was really use by locals. What happen to all of those is still a mistery, that colonistation alone cant explain (... Oh, have I talk about our "civil war" against terrorisme in the 90"s, when having just a screwdiver could take you to jail ?? Every knifes banned, their making, their selling, and of course their collecting ?? Every weapons taken, no more huners for a decade, in whole algeria, etc etc... another black point of our history, on weapons craftsmanship... even the skills of bousaada, its a miracle that its still some smiths today, herited from the ancient, and just due to their distance from the north, and its various conflicts)

And finally a model sold on auctions, that Ive seen many from that shape, usually like the previous one, with very few deco, obvioulsy for use, and clearly ottoman era (handle shape).

Hope it will help understand a bit more the complexity on establishing if an algerian model is a weapon, or not

Pertinax · 3rd August 2025, 12:03 PM

Many thanks to fennec for the detailed answer and your thoughts!

The last photos of the knives that you showed are more practical in use. In their example, one can trace the Mediterranean influence, including Ottoman, Serbian, Cretan.

The blade shanks and the fastening in the handle are similar to those on the knives that we call Bou-saadi or Hodmi.

It is great that you are studying the fleece, this unique and beautiful type of cold weapon, around which many speculations and incorrect versions have arisen over the years.

As an Algerian, it is easier for you to understand many aspects. Foreigners do not always correctly understand this or that feature in the lifestyle and behavior of another people.

Using the example of E. Lapene "Vingt-six mois a Bougie", his memoirs present very important and valuable information, since he was a participant and eyewitness of those events. But at the same time, the Kabilas were wild, bloodthirsty savages for him, who were against the "noble occupation" of the French. On this basis, some of his information raises doubts.

Good luck to you in your research and writing the book, we will wait for new publications.

With respect,
Yuri

fennec · 5th August 2025, 04:21 AM

You're welcome Yuri, it's a real pleasure for me to share those few knowledges, and cant wait to share with you my book, and know your reactions of all here, about many discovering/suppositions I've made on algerian weapons.

You're absolutely right about the last model. You can even find similarities with other knifes for bousaada area, not only the one known as "khodmi" (the one with a metal lace on the handle) but more like the "saharian mouss/khodmi", the one that E.Claude call the "couteau Ã* lame triangulaire". The berber engravings are very close. May be an ancestor of the classic inlay on a flissa, or just another kind of deco.

About flissa, I'm still struggling to find some responses, as for exemple the exact way of use, etc. I've been "forced" (but with pleasure) to forge two, with fully ancient skills and tools (also made by the ancient way.. no power tools at all etc..). And I'm actually starting again on boarding nimcha. Trying to confirm many things, as those "differential quenching" for exemple, and the way it could be made and such saber shape, with only a charcoil forge and water... so .. yeah, still a long road I guess, but passioning !

Oh yeah, "Blaise Jean FranÃ§ois Ã‰douard LapÃ¨ne"... haha... what an exemple. This guy had been "Commandant supÃ©rieur de Bougie (AlgÃ©rie). - Lieutenant-colonel (1839), puis colonel (1843)", at the very first era of colonisation. He even took part on one of the most brutal fight, in Kabylie (Bougie/Bejaia). So yeah, obviously, his writtings where massivly influenced by his position, the idea of the "good" of his entreprise (colonisation), algerian as ennemies, not to say racism, etc....
But even without going so far, many "simple" ethnologist or historian, artists, or adventurer, had sometimes made big missunderstood, just because cultural habits, or views on africa.
My better exemple is for the shapes/scheme applied on decorations. We/I found much more "logic" meanings on local cultures, than in many books. For ex Ive one read that the cross shape of tuareg knives could be from a christian influence. Wich is absolutely impossible. Then we look to the "agadez cross", analyze the importance of the sky, stars and cardinal points for those nomadic people, and everything becomes logic.
Another ex is that hole on the bousaadi khodmi. Many occidentals thinks that is to add a "dragonne", to keep the knife in hand. And it seem logic for us (actually, Im also european haha), because of how many tools and weapons having that in our coutries.. BUT, in algeria, this hole si made to keep the knife IN the scabbard, wich generally have a leather lace to pass in it. Regarding the area where those knives are used (mountains, deserts etc), and where a guy had to climb, jump, get on and off his horse, that seem evident.
But however, even if I'm algerian, we have to remember that all those theories (some of them..) are still uncertain, due to the absolute lack of info on them, and I still learn things every week. Thats why I think that all my affirmations, or even from any "specialist", had to be taken with many precautions.
For exemple, a nimcha that I think was algerian in my book, was actually Tunisian, by a very small detail that changed all my view on this subject, and forced me to change many parts Ive already written. A reason why this book is like a curse for me now haha...

Well, thanks again for that exchange and encouragement !! Now back to work, so sorry if Im away for some weeks !!

Amically,
Khaled

3rd August 2025, 02:41 AM	#5
fennec Member Join Date: Feb 2023 Location: France Posts: 36	Handle length (Again, ok Im a blacksmith, ok algerian and self proclamed specialist (lol), but I still can absolutely wrong on what is coming, so only my theories... ) Well Yuri, for me, yours is clearly a weapon. But first STRAIGHT Flissa daggers, with my "smith" eye, are all, weapons, in the willing and style of made, even those made for deco, let me explain.... Those are effective tools, "SOLID", and respecting the exact same way of making than any knife, and in this case, even for a long flissa. For me, the principal point, is the bolster. Nobody want to forge a such thing, going from a thick piece of steal, heating it, lenghten it, inlay it, etc... just for deco. There is absolutely no reason for to add yourself such a work, but the solidity of the object. And you gonna tell "ok, but all straight daggers have that bolster"... And I will say yes, so those are weapons .. BUT, we all know here that lot of them where sold for tourists, so how really make a difference ? We can not... in my tought, even the Kabyle jewelers from Ath Yeni tribe, copied that style as the "right way of making".. Even when some "curved" model without bolster was also made, just by cutting a steel sheat. So know, how it was in those shops ? May be just the price was different, and may what was initially a weapon, became something deco, and losts most of ist initial caracteristics, as for many cultural things in north africa, or anywhere (ex. moukahla, horses sadles, stirrups, etc). Now yours. So if we cant really know if a model is a weapon, or not, we just have to look it, a make a choice. I mean, the steal is the same (usually), the deco too, so it probably only depend on the smith skills, the sharpness (even if, those are not made to slash, but to thrust, kabyle like "rasors" for slashing, as known by the saddly name "kabyle smile") etc. And what I see on your is a particularly well made one, the tip looks very agressive, really made by some who was thinking to its use. The deco are also for me a good info. contrary to what some people think, for me, as more as the inlays are qualitative, as more as the "weapon" is good, and not a deco. For ex, all those fake curved daggers without bolster, display the same, like just one line inlayed, and few engravings, and not deep. Now the handles... ALGERIANS, NOT DUTCH Not the same hands I mean, of course there was a lot of "big" algerians, but as everybody know, we, human, was a bit smaller the past centuries. If you add to that the general tall of mediterannean people, AND, a probable heritage for that mersurement, that came for earlier that period, 10cm (yeah, personnaly count 10cm, from the bolster, to the end of pommel), is a quite good/sufficient leght. 10CM is actually a standard in algerian weapons, that I found a lot, even for longer swords, a lot of flissa, nimcha, etc. Sometime only the pommel is a bit bigger, but same surface for the hand. Here is a picture of the handle of one of my daggers, comparing to two yatagan, and one sudanese kaskara. See that the difference is imperceptible. Then, this is a thrusting dagger, so even the pommel is "useless" and can be hold by the two last fingers, despite blocking the hand as for a nimcha. The two second pictures are from what I call "flissa dagger" (well, in french I call those symetric models "dagues", and the straight ones "poignard"/knife flissa... it help me making differences). For me, those ones are mostly decorative.. but not all (as for curved ones). I presume that those models are probably herited from real used weapons, and became to begin trash with time (ps.. note the similarities with some serbian daggers from sarajevo in the 19th). As for others flissa daggers, I judge by the "weapon" quality, by its making. I think, that probaly both could be sold by the same guy, as just two different quality of knives, even if one is clearly a toy... Notice that big bolster, when the other is just "cut" in a steel plate, have a little nail as tang, etc.. Then, is just a simple flissa knife of mine probably french era. Just interessant because of its conception, purely usefull (dont judge by its shiny look, it had been restored, but its quite old). Look at this "file" steel blade, that keeps its marks, and the very simple handle. No decoration at all, because just of the hardness of this steel comparing to local ones, or just the guy dont know how. PS... this one is still very, very sharp ! However, this model is interessant because it seems that such knives was really use by locals. What happen to all of those is still a mistery, that colonistation alone cant explain (... Oh, have I talk about our "civil war" against terrorisme in the 90"s, when having just a screwdiver could take you to jail ?? Every knifes banned, their making, their selling, and of course their collecting ?? Every weapons taken, no more huners for a decade, in whole algeria, etc etc... another black point of our history, on weapons craftsmanship... even the skills of bousaada, its a miracle that its still some smiths today, herited from the ancient, and just due to their distance from the north, and its various conflicts) And finally a model sold on auctions, that Ive seen many from that shape, usually like the previous one, with very few deco, obvioulsy for use, and clearly ottoman era (handle shape). Hope it will help understand a bit more the complexity on establishing if an algerian model is a weapon, or not Attached Images

1st August 2025, 03:20 PM	#1
Pertinax Member Join Date: Dec 2023 Location: City by the Black Sea Posts: 283	I evaluate everything adequately and it is not for nothing that I quoted K. Lacoste. She does not have an answer to the question about the size of the dagger handles. I will also add - any knife and dagger, in addition to combat use, is used for purely domestic needs, and therefore must be convenient to use. This is not observed here, beautiful - yes, but extremely inconvenient in practical use. That is why I would like to see a dagger before 1850.

2nd August 2025, 04:25 AM	#2
werecow Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: Leiden, NL Posts: 602	I'm not sure what you're saying. I'm telling you my experience... I can assure you that a 7cm hilt is probably usable for me and easily enough for a younger version of me. Admittedly I'm relatively short for a Dutch guy but in international circles I'm about average in size. Maybe I have tiny hands, but it's never come up.

2nd August 2025, 10:04 PM	#4
werecow Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: Leiden, NL Posts: 602	So, out of curiosity, I stabbed into a few thick cardboard targets (the box of a recent acquisition ) with moderate force with my specimen and that at least seems fine. In fact, despite being quite angular, I find that it is actually pretty comfortable to hold. I held it with my thumb and index finger pinching the part near the bolster and my pinky snugly against the pommel. The pommel fits well in the palm of my hand that way and prevents my hand from moving during use. Perhaps I would experience what you describe if I stabbed it with more force into more durable materials, but I don't want to risk damaging the tip (or my hands, obviously), and I don't have any targets that would be suitable in my home at the moment. Of course, I can't really comment on the effect of having a shorter grip as I don't have one of that length, so perhaps that would make all the difference.

3rd August 2025, 12:03 PM	#6
Pertinax Member Join Date: Dec 2023 Location: City by the Black Sea Posts: 283	Many thanks to fennec for the detailed answer and your thoughts! The last photos of the knives that you showed are more practical in use. In their example, one can trace the Mediterranean influence, including Ottoman, Serbian, Cretan. The blade shanks and the fastening in the handle are similar to those on the knives that we call Bou-saadi or Hodmi. It is great that you are studying the fleece, this unique and beautiful type of cold weapon, around which many speculations and incorrect versions have arisen over the years. As an Algerian, it is easier for you to understand many aspects. Foreigners do not always correctly understand this or that feature in the lifestyle and behavior of another people. Using the example of E. Lapene "Vingt-six mois a Bougie", his memoirs present very important and valuable information, since he was a participant and eyewitness of those events. But at the same time, the Kabilas were wild, bloodthirsty savages for him, who were against the "noble occupation" of the French. On this basis, some of his information raises doubts. Good luck to you in your research and writing the book, we will wait for new publications. With respect, Yuri

5th August 2025, 04:21 AM	#7
fennec Member Join Date: Feb 2023 Location: France Posts: 36	You're welcome Yuri, it's a real pleasure for me to share those few knowledges, and cant wait to share with you my book, and know your reactions of all here, about many discovering/suppositions I've made on algerian weapons. You're absolutely right about the last model. You can even find similarities with other knifes for bousaada area, not only the one known as "khodmi" (the one with a metal lace on the handle) but more like the "saharian mouss/khodmi", the one that E.Claude call the "couteau Ã* lame triangulaire". The berber engravings are very close. May be an ancestor of the classic inlay on a flissa, or just another kind of deco. About flissa, I'm still struggling to find some responses, as for exemple the exact way of use, etc. I've been "forced" (but with pleasure) to forge two, with fully ancient skills and tools (also made by the ancient way.. no power tools at all etc..). And I'm actually starting again on boarding nimcha. Trying to confirm many things, as those "differential quenching" for exemple, and the way it could be made and such saber shape, with only a charcoil forge and water... so .. yeah, still a long road I guess, but passioning ! Oh yeah, "Blaise Jean FranÃ§ois Ã‰douard LapÃ¨ne"... haha... what an exemple. This guy had been "Commandant supÃ©rieur de Bougie (AlgÃ©rie). - Lieutenant-colonel (1839), puis colonel (1843)", at the very first era of colonisation. He even took part on one of the most brutal fight, in Kabylie (Bougie/Bejaia). So yeah, obviously, his writtings where massivly influenced by his position, the idea of the "good" of his entreprise (colonisation), algerian as ennemies, not to say racism, etc.... But even without going so far, many "simple" ethnologist or historian, artists, or adventurer, had sometimes made big missunderstood, just because cultural habits, or views on africa. My better exemple is for the shapes/scheme applied on decorations. We/I found much more "logic" meanings on local cultures, than in many books. For ex Ive one read that the cross shape of tuareg knives could be from a christian influence. Wich is absolutely impossible. Then we look to the "agadez cross", analyze the importance of the sky, stars and cardinal points for those nomadic people, and everything becomes logic. Another ex is that hole on the bousaadi khodmi. Many occidentals thinks that is to add a "dragonne", to keep the knife in hand. And it seem logic for us (actually, Im also european haha), because of how many tools and weapons having that in our coutries.. BUT, in algeria, this hole si made to keep the knife IN the scabbard, wich generally have a leather lace to pass in it. Regarding the area where those knives are used (mountains, deserts etc), and where a guy had to climb, jump, get on and off his horse, that seem evident. But however, even if I'm algerian, we have to remember that all those theories (some of them..) are still uncertain, due to the absolute lack of info on them, and I still learn things every week. Thats why I think that all my affirmations, or even from any "specialist", had to be taken with many precautions. For exemple, a nimcha that I think was algerian in my book, was actually Tunisian, by a very small detail that changed all my view on this subject, and forced me to change many parts Ive already written. A reason why this book is like a curse for me now haha... Well, thanks again for that exchange and encouragement !! Now back to work, so sorry if Im away for some weeks !! Amically, Khaled