CIVIL WAR question..Ballard .44 rimfire single shot

Jim McDougall · 18th July 2025, 06:48 PM

Totally amazing piece CC! I never even heard of these. It seems there were quite a few individual designs vying for contracts, and as seen here and with the Ballard and others, many contracts were far from completed.
I think that is what is exciting about firearms of this period during and after the war.

Bannerman was a mysterious and incredible entity, it seems he had his hands in all manner of surplus, stockpiling literally tons of weapons after the war and it seems in many other areas even foreign. I think he was impetus for the basic pursuits of arms collecting in the early part of the century.
Would have loved to see his island and castle in the middle of the Hudson River back in the day!

urbanspaceman · 18th July 2025, 07:21 PM

I am certain the final showdown in the movie "The Outlaw Josie Wales" features a replaceable cylinder winning the day... yes?
It was a definite boon with percussion arms and it would have been equally useful on cartridge revolvers surely?
Today, of course, swing out cylinders allow the use of speed loaders.

Jim McDougall · 18th July 2025, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

I am certain the final showdown in the movie "The Outlaw Josie Wales" features a replaceable cylinder winning the day... yes?
It was a definite boon with percussion arms and it would have been equally useful on cartridge revolvers surely?
Today, of course, swing out cylinders allow the use of speed loaders.

Thats weird Keith! We were just talking about 'speed loaders' and were trying to remember which Eastwood movie that was seen in!

Edster · 22nd July 2025, 05:31 PM

Sorry guys, Eastwood used a Remington in Pale Rider. Here's an AI search:

In the movie Pale Rider (1985), Clint Eastwood's character, "Preacher," uses a Remington 1858 New Army revolver. The gun is notably featured in the film, with its interchangeable cylinders being demonstrated by Eastwood. It is a .44 caliber pistol, originally a cap-and-ball percussion model, but modified for the film to fire metallic cartridges.

Best,
Ed

urbanspaceman · 23rd July 2025, 09:50 AM

"I am certain the final showdown in the movie "The Outlaw Josie Wales" features a replaceable cylinder winning the day... yes?"
Yes, and it was a Remington; I didn't mention a manufacturer, only that the feature was a rapidly replaced cylinder - which was the essence of the issue.
I didn't suggest it was such a simple replacement exercise as the Rogers and Spencer, I just remember it being the effort that won the day, because I looked at my Remington at the time and didn't see how it could have been achieved, so put it down to Hollywood fabrication.
I also suggested that I saw no reason why it could not have been used equally effectively on the approaching cartridge cylinders; does anyone know why not?

CutlassCollector · 23rd July 2025, 11:38 AM

Google tells me that speed loaders were invented in 1879.
Strange how they did not make it into our TV cop shows or movies until a hundred years later!

I don't know for sure whether there were cartridge pistols with quick change cylinders, but as some percussion guns were converted it seems likely. The need, however, would be much reduced as bullets could be reloaded much more quickly.
It would be highly unlikely that a percussion revolver could be reloaded in the midst of an action.

It takes all the actions of any muzzle loader. Powder in, ball in, ramrod, wad - even for one chamber multiply by six for a full load. Then the fiddly bit of getting a percussion cap on to each nipple - hopefully with the aid of a dispenser.

The percussion revolver also had an additional requirement - each loaded chamber had to be sealed with grease. This was to prevent any discharge setting off another or all the other chambers, as the ignition flash was so close, as a part of it exited at the junction between chamber and barrel.
This not good for the gun or your hand.

urbanspaceman · 23rd July 2025, 03:09 PM

Thank-you CC. I was not aware of the percussion ignition spreading, but now I look at my Colt (made for export to London) pocket pistol I see just how much damage was done to the surrounding surfaces. Ouch! indeed.
When I was researching my Remington Rolling Block pistol, I read that the (US) Navy wanted to return the 5,000 percussion pistols they had recently acquired.
All you have said, plus salt-water, and freezing cold wet fingers attempting to get the caps fitted, rendered them useless a lot of the time. They were exchanged for the new .50 rim-fire cartridge, rolling-block pistols. It's not hard to see why. As I've said many times, I would sooner have one of those, with a bandolier full of ammunition, than any revolver - any time.
All but c.140 were soon returned for conversion to center-fire and a shrouded trigger. I was lucky to find that first generation model: it is a superb job, even with the spur trigger.

18th July 2025, 07:21 PM	#2
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 715	Our Man Clint I am certain the final showdown in the movie "The Outlaw Josie Wales" features a replaceable cylinder winning the day... yes? It was a definite boon with percussion arms and it would have been equally useful on cartridge revolvers surely? Today, of course, swing out cylinders allow the use of speed loaders.

23rd July 2025, 09:50 AM	#5
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 715	no make mentioned "I am certain the final showdown in the movie "The Outlaw Josie Wales" features a replaceable cylinder winning the day... yes?" Yes, and it was a Remington; I didn't mention a manufacturer, only that the feature was a rapidly replaced cylinder - which was the essence of the issue. I didn't suggest it was such a simple replacement exercise as the Rogers and Spencer, I just remember it being the effort that won the day, because I looked at my Remington at the time and didn't see how it could have been achieved, so put it down to Hollywood fabrication. I also suggested that I saw no reason why it could not have been used equally effectively on the approaching cartridge cylinders; does anyone know why not?

23rd July 2025, 03:09 PM	#7
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 715	cap it all Thank-you CC. I was not aware of the percussion ignition spreading, but now I look at my Colt (made for export to London) pocket pistol I see just how much damage was done to the surrounding surfaces. Ouch! indeed. When I was researching my Remington Rolling Block pistol, I read that the (US) Navy wanted to return the 5,000 percussion pistols they had recently acquired. All you have said, plus salt-water, and freezing cold wet fingers attempting to get the caps fitted, rendered them useless a lot of the time. They were exchanged for the new .50 rim-fire cartridge, rolling-block pistols. It's not hard to see why. As I've said many times, I would sooner have one of those, with a bandolier full of ammunition, than any revolver - any time. All but c.140 were soon returned for conversion to center-fire and a shrouded trigger. I was lucky to find that first generation model: it is a superb job, even with the spur trigger.

18th July 2025, 06:48 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,549	Totally amazing piece CC! I never even heard of these. It seems there were quite a few individual designs vying for contracts, and as seen here and with the Ballard and others, many contracts were far from completed. I think that is what is exciting about firearms of this period during and after the war. Bannerman was a mysterious and incredible entity, it seems he had his hands in all manner of surplus, stockpiling literally tons of weapons after the war and it seems in many other areas even foreign. I think he was impetus for the basic pursuits of arms collecting in the early part of the century. Would have loved to see his island and castle in the middle of the Hudson River back in the day!

22nd July 2025, 05:31 PM	#4
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 435	Sorry guys, Eastwood used a Remington in Pale Rider. Here's an AI search: In the movie Pale Rider (1985), Clint Eastwood's character, "Preacher," uses a Remington 1858 New Army revolver. The gun is notably featured in the film, with its interchangeable cylinders being demonstrated by Eastwood. It is a .44 caliber pistol, originally a cap-and-ball percussion model, but modified for the film to fire metallic cartridges. Best, Ed

23rd July 2025, 11:38 AM	#6
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 368	Google tells me that speed loaders were invented in 1879. Strange how they did not make it into our TV cop shows or movies until a hundred years later! I don't know for sure whether there were cartridge pistols with quick change cylinders, but as some percussion guns were converted it seems likely. The need, however, would be much reduced as bullets could be reloaded much more quickly. It would be highly unlikely that a percussion revolver could be reloaded in the midst of an action. It takes all the actions of any muzzle loader. Powder in, ball in, ramrod, wad - even for one chamber multiply by six for a full load. Then the fiddly bit of getting a percussion cap on to each nipple - hopefully with the aid of a dispenser. The percussion revolver also had an additional requirement - each loaded chamber had to be sealed with grease. This was to prevent any discharge setting off another or all the other chambers, as the ignition flash was so close, as a part of it exited at the junction between chamber and barrel. This not good for the gun or your hand.