A koummya- and contexts

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Pertinax

In addition.

Thoughts out loud.

Ethnographic weapons are an addition to the national costume in peacetime, but during war the situation changes.

Local arms fair??

[Pertinax]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Local arms fair??

Yemen, Houthis

[Jim McDougall]

Getting back to koummyas, well pointed out that ethnographic weapons in general indeed follow traditional styles and forms, and are worn as elements of status and fashion. With many forms, there has yet to be proven that they were ever intended for combat or use in defense.

The fact that a number of specific forms were ceremonial or associated as rite of passage elements for young men as they enter adulthood seems also well established. Naturally, as recalling many discussions over the years, these perspectives on certain weapon forms are often notably varied and typically not universally shared by the arms community. Such disparity in views is to be expected, and often brings interesting philosophically oriented discourse, as seen in much of this discourse.

One case in point in analogy is the flyssa of the Kabyles in Algeria. This form has remained indiginous to these tribes in Algeria, and the origin and development of the form has long been disputed but it seems agreed that it is a relatively recent one from early 19th c.
Naturally the question....was it used in combat has been an issue.
As far as I have seen, there are no viable records or accounts of these in use, nor manner of use.
Here it goes to the unusual but distinctive hilt, and terrible balance of the long examples (blade length seems varied).
It seems these fall mostly into the rite of passage category, as well as personal status weapon, and often the characteristic decoration is embellisged with certain individual symbols.

The point is..if the flyssa was actuallu used as a weapon, how so? The blade is long, unwieldy, needle point and poorly balanced.
If for thrusting, there is no guard whatsoever to stop the hand from sliding downward...if for slashing why the needle point etc.
So there again is the lack of guard elements conundrum. Would the back of the blade extending be deemed a stop for the hand?

[Changdao]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Getting back to koummyas, well pointed out that ethnographic weapons in general indeed follow traditional styles and forms, and are worn as elements of status and fashion. With many forms, there has yet to be proven that they were ever intended for combat or use in defense.

The fact that a number of specific forms were ceremonial or associated as rite of passage elements for young men as they enter adulthood seems also well established. Naturally, as recalling many discussions over the years, these perspectives on certain weapon forms are often notably varied and typically not universally shared by the arms community. Such disparity in views is to be expected, and often brings interesting philosophically oriented discourse, as seen in much of this discourse.

One case in point in analogy is the flyssa of the Kabyles in Algeria. This form has remained indiginous to these tribes in Algeria, and the origin and development of the form has long been disputed but it seems agreed that it is a relatively recent one from early 19th c.
Naturally the question....was it used in combat has been an issue.
As far as I have seen, there are no viable records or accounts of these in use, nor manner of use.
Here it goes to the unusual but distinctive hilt, and terrible balance of the long examples (blade length seems varied).
It seems these fall mostly into the rite of passage category, as well as personal status weapon, and often the characteristic decoration is embellisged with certain individual symbols.

The point is..if the flyssa was actuallu used as a weapon, how so? The blade is long, unwieldy, needle point and poorly balanced.
If for thrusting, there is no guard whatsoever to stop the hand from sliding downward...if for slashing why the needle point etc.
So there again is the lack of guard elements conundrum. Would the back of the blade extending be deemed a stop for the hand?

I don't doubt they were used in combat. Thrusts could be problematic due to the risks of the hand sliding up the blade, but it is not an issue if you don't thrust with it and just use it to cut. A chop with a flyssa would be quite devastating for an unarmoured targets, which were basically all of them in their context. "Balance" is a very relative word. Flyssas tend to have a point of balance quite up the blade, like many historical swords, which makes cuts with them more powerful. Sure, you can't really use it well like a contemporary military saber, but you can't use a Migration Era sword like a saber either.

Khyber knives have a similar weapon profile and yet British accounts are adamant in that the Afghans only used them for cutting, and those are safer to thrust with. Many yataghans suffer from the same and we know they were widely used for combat nonetheless.

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks Changdao, good points, but still have never seen any accounts recorded of them in use. The only one example I could find in period context was in the French Foreign Legion museum in France said to have been 'captured' in 1857 in campaigns. It was presumed taken from a household taken over.
I have seen several images of Kabyles posed with these, but in static pose.

My point was not to derail the thread, but by analogy show the question of whether an ethnographic weapon was actually used, as with the matters concerning the koummya.

Khyber knives and yataghans were pretty well documented as used in combat, in various sources and illustrations, but I have to see any such record of a flyssa. I would be most pleased to see any such illustration.

[Pertinax]

Camille Lacoste in her work " Sabres Kabyles" has conscientiously collected everything she could about the Kabyles and the fleece.

The main source of information is the book by Edouard Lapene «Vingt-six mois à Bougie», which he wrote in 1839, just nine years after the French landed in Sidi Fredj (Sidi Ferruch) in 1830.

Edouard Lapine, lieutenant colonel of artillery, a direct participant in the conquest and occupation of the Kabyle port city of Bejaia (French: Bougie), was the head of the garrison in Bougie from August 4, 1836.

So, everything revolves around the memoirs of Lapene.

And so we have (I apologize in advance for possible inaccuracies in the translation).

Application.

Lapene writes:
- This weapon... is very dangerous for thrusting", he adds:
- The Kabyles rarely use it for cutting, except when they want to cut off a head. In this case, they apply the retractor part from above and strongly pull the hand back while sawing.

C. Lacoste rightly notes:
- It is difficult to imagine how this double movement could be quickly performed in the heat of battle, either this use was intended for capital punishment, or the action was carried out by cunning, when the victim did not think or could not parry the blow.

I will add on my own behalf that in order to cut off the enemy's head, he must first be defeated in combat.

Further in various places Lapene writes:
- Both sides, however, sometimes approach each other with bladed weapons and advance on their enemy, with a rifle in one hand, a yataghan in the other, making the latter a very fast windmill and uttering loud cries.

- They also use the yataghan, a weapon very dangerous because of its shape and the sharp blows they deliver with it.

- Having risen very close, the Kabaile horsemen fire their rifles and take up the yataghan. This movement is done very quickly, their gun strap is very long and hangs below the weapon, after firing they throw the gun back, and can immediately draw their yataghan.

- In the attacks of November 7 and 8, 1835, yataghans crossed with our sabres and, despite the numerical superiority, we beat off the enemy and repelled his blow.

And that's basically it! There is no detailed description of the battle itself. In fact, it seems that this was almost the only face-to-face skirmish. The French had the advantage in weapons, these are more modern and rapid-fire guns, cannons with grapeshot and they hit the Kabyles from a distance, without engaging in hand-to-hand combat.

Personally, I have doubts that the fleece was mainly used only for stabbing. According to his testimony, the infantrymen "turned the mill" with the fleece. This is very similar to the technique of wielding a saber among the Cossacks and the peoples of the Caucasus, but after such manipulations a saber blow is delivered.

K. Lacoste gives an explanation for the "little knowledge" of the fleece:
- How could it happen that such an original weapon could be so ignored?

Before the French conquest, almost no one penetrated Kabylia from the outside. The conquerors founded several colonial outposts there, and only in exceptional cases dared to penetrate into the interior of the country.

Therefore, they knew nothing about the Kabyle people and things. Travelers avoided the region, whose inhabitants had a bad reputation.

Subsequently, they had to wait for the French conquest, which, having penetrated into the interior, discovered and made known the fleece. This is confirmed by Nicolas Bibesco " Kabyles du Djurdjura ":

- Elsewhere we have already said: that the Kabyles do not have national chronicles, when we want to study their history in ancient times, we have no other sources except little-known or partial chronicles of their enemies.

On this basis, it cannot be asserted that the flissa appeared at the beginning of the 19th century, at which time it became known to Europeans.

[Changdao]

Originally Posted by Pertinax

Camille Lacoste in her work " Sabres Kabyles" has conscientiously collected everything she could about the Kabyles and the fleece.

The main source of information is the book by Edouard Lapene «Vingt-six mois à Bougie», which he wrote in 1839, just nine years after the French landed in Sidi Fredj (Sidi Ferruch) in 1830.

Edouard Lapine, lieutenant colonel of artillery, a direct participant in the conquest and occupation of the Kabyle port city of Bejaia (French: Bougie), was the head of the garrison in Bougie from August 4, 1836.

So, everything revolves around the memoirs of Lapene.

And so we have (I apologize in advance for possible inaccuracies in the translation).

Application.

Lapene writes:
- This weapon... is very dangerous for thrusting", he adds:
- The Kabyles rarely use it for cutting, except when they want to cut off a head. In this case, they apply the retractor part from above and strongly pull the hand back while sawing.

C. Lacoste rightly notes:
- It is difficult to imagine how this double movement could be quickly performed in the heat of battle, either this use was intended for capital punishment, or the action was carried out by cunning, when the victim did not think or could not parry the blow.

I will add on my own behalf that in order to cut off the enemy's head, he must first be defeated in combat.

Further in various places Lapene writes:
- Both sides, however, sometimes approach each other with bladed weapons and advance on their enemy, with a rifle in one hand, a yataghan in the other, making the latter a very fast windmill and uttering loud cries.

- They also use the yataghan, a weapon very dangerous because of its shape and the sharp blows they deliver with it.

- Having risen very close, the Kabaile horsemen fire their rifles and take up the yataghan. This movement is done very quickly, their gun strap is very long and hangs below the weapon, after firing they throw the gun back, and can immediately draw their yataghan.

- In the attacks of November 7 and 8, 1835, yataghans crossed with our sabres and, despite the numerical superiority, we beat off the enemy and repelled his blow.

And that's basically it! There is no detailed description of the battle itself. In fact, it seems that this was almost the only face-to-face skirmish. The French had the advantage in weapons, these are more modern and rapid-fire guns, cannons with grapeshot and they hit the Kabyles from a distance, without engaging in hand-to-hand combat.

Personally, I have doubts that the fleece was mainly used only for stabbing. According to his testimony, the infantrymen "turned the mill" with the fleece. This is very similar to the technique of wielding a saber among the Cossacks and the peoples of the Caucasus, but after such manipulations a saber blow is delivered.

K. Lacoste gives an explanation for the "little knowledge" of the fleece:
- How could it happen that such an original weapon could be so ignored?

Before the French conquest, almost no one penetrated Kabylia from the outside. The conquerors founded several colonial outposts there, and only in exceptional cases dared to penetrate into the interior of the country.

Therefore, they knew nothing about the Kabyle people and things. Travelers avoided the region, whose inhabitants had a bad reputation.

Subsequently, they had to wait for the French conquest, which, having penetrated into the interior, discovered and made known the fleece. This is confirmed by Nicolas Bibesco " Kabyles du Djurdjura ":

- Elsewhere we have already said: that the Kabyles do not have national chronicles, when we want to study their history in ancient times, we have no other sources except little-known or partial chronicles of their enemies.

On this basis, it cannot be asserted that the flissa appeared at the beginning of the 19th century, at which time it became known to Europeans.

Very interesting information! Thanks for sharing.

[werecow]

Originally Posted by Changdao

I don't doubt they were used in combat. Thrusts could be problematic due to the risks of the hand sliding up the blade,

I doubt that. The flyssa's step between the blade and grip is no smaller than, say, the one for an Indonesian rencong, which is certainly a thrusting weapon. And they have an absolutely terrifying needle point that rivals any smallsword. I would be very surprised if these were not used for thrusting.

[Jim McDougall]

Pertinax, absolutely amazing! and thank you so much for taking the time to translate and compile this valuable information!

So it seems clear that even weapons which 'seem' inviable as combat weapons according to western standards, in actuality were indeed used and effectively.
To the koummya question, it does appear that even in the case of the absence of guard projections on the hilt (=vestigial quillons) these daggers remain usable combatively.

This truly is wonderful insight into the actual use of the flyssa, and in the study I did on them many years ago, the major block was that these resources were in French. Clearly I should have had them translated but in those days there were not as many such options.

I would suppose then on the koummya, that the 'souvenir' category would apply to those with less than substantial blades, and 'flimsier' character, as would be expected with many ethnographic forms in such character.

[Pertinax]

Thanks to Jim McDougall for his kind words.

In conclusion.

К. Lacoste:

Decadence.

Perfectly adapted to use, the fleece managed to survive until the French conquest. But from 1850 onwards, it no longer had a reason to exist. Whereas it was once the object of jealous care, it is now often remade to be used as a knife for cutting up meat and slaughtering.

The monopoly of the Iflisen no longer exists. But a new clientele has arrived: the "travelers" of yesteryear, today's tourists, who have shown great love for such an original weapon. To satisfy this new clientele, it was necessary to get closer to the tourist routes. The production methods have changed: from the artisanal plan, they have moved to the "manufacturing" stage, often even working "wholesale", on behalf of dealers from Algeria.

Finally, the weapon itself has adapted to its new use. The amateur is little concerned with the functional properties of the weapon. He likes above all the "local color", the "decorativeness". Nowadays, the fleece industry is degenerating as a function of the disappearance of need, according to a threefold process: degradation of the nature of the weapon itself, transformation of the methods of work, liquidation of the production center, transfer of the production center.

Rene Maunier «La Construction Collective de la Maison en Kabylie», Paris, Institut d’ethnologie, 1926

- However, I saw in Taourirt-Mimoun, in the Beni-Yenni tribe, a recently founded carpentry workshop, which is a kind of factory in the true sense of the word. They make sabres, wooden trays and frames for tourists. In a large new room, about ten by five meters, about ten workers have gathered. To make the sabres, called fleeces, one draws, another cuts the wood, a third inlays with copper wires, another fixes the blades. There is one who only forges. Others work as managers, others on patterns. Thus, there is specialization not only in operations, but also in production. And this is the result of the opening of the European market to the Kabyle industry.

I repeat, K. Lacoste collected all the information on fleece and Kabila, my opinion is that, unfortunately, we will not learn anything new.