A koummya- and contexts

RobT · 29th March 2025, 05:38 AM

Kahnjar 1,
Whether or not they fit the definition of “true” quillons, the typical projections at the base of a koummya serve to prevent the user’s hand from sliding up the hilt on a thrust. I am rather amazed that you have seen more examples that, like Jim’s, don’t have this feature than do because, of the 30 koummya in my collection, all have the necessary projections. I would also point out that the overwhelming majority of koummya examples posted on this forum, have these projections. This makes sense. The koummya is a cut and thrust weapon and the thrust is the most deadly as it results in quick death by internal bleeding or slow death by sepsis. No actual fighting knife or sword in the world that is intended for thrusting in actual combat lacks some way to prevent the user’s hand from sliding up the blade on impact.
As you noted, the koummya was worn on a baldric. The baldric was slung over the right shoulder and the blade was suspended at the left hip area (hence the name jambiya). However, the djellaba, the typical Moroccan male attire which was very loose fitting, would largely obscure any sheath and hilt decoration worn close to the body. Save for one example, all the koummya in my collection that have decoration on the “body” side are far more simply decorated than the side that is fully visible. The one example noted is very sparsely decorated on both sides and has other anomalies that make me suspect that it was made outside of the Moroccan culture.
I don’t think that the quality of European trade blades necessarily correlates with functional weapon status. Mechanized industrial methods would allow the Europeans to easily produce blades of higher quality than could be achieved by the African village blacksmith competition. If these more attractive European blades were offered at a price point reasonably close to those offered by the village blacksmiths, buyers would naturally choose them even though the functionality of the rest of the ensemble was questionable. This would be especially true if the buyer didn’t expect to have to use the weapon in combat. As an example from our own culture, how many SUVs are bought with any thought of taking them off road? Furthermore, how many of those SUVs are fitted with rims and low profile tires that would make it impossible to take them off road?

Jim McDougall,
I have seen baldrics of both wool and cotton. I suspect the wool ones are older but it may be that the cotton ones just wore out and were discarded as the knives made their way out of the culture.

Sincerely,
RobT

kahnjar1 · 29th March 2025, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobT

Kahnjar 1,
Whether or not they fit the definition of “true” quillons, the typical projections at the base of a koummya serve to prevent the user’s hand from sliding up the hilt on a thrust. I am rather amazed that you have seen more examples that, like Jim’s, don’t have this feature than do because, of the 30 koummya in my collection, all have the necessary projections. I would also point out that the overwhelming majority of koummya examples posted on this forum, have these projections. This makes sense. The koummya is a cut and thrust weapon and the thrust is the most deadly as it results in quick death by internal bleeding or slow death by sepsis. No actual fighting knife or sword in the world that is intended for thrusting in actual combat lacks some way to prevent the user’s hand from sliding up the blade on impact.
As you noted, the koummya was worn on a baldric. The baldric was slung over the right shoulder and the blade was suspended at the left hip area (hence the name jambiya). However, the djellaba, the typical Moroccan male attire which was very loose fitting, would largely obscure any sheath and hilt decoration worn close to the body. Save for one example, all the koummya in my collection that have decoration on the “body” side are far more simply decorated than the side that is fully visible. The one example noted is very sparsely decorated on both sides and has other anomalies that make me suspect that it was made outside of the Moroccan culture.
I don’t think that the quality of European trade blades necessarily correlates with functional weapon status. Mechanized industrial methods would allow the Europeans to easily produce blades of higher quality than could be achieved by the African village blacksmith competition. If these more attractive European blades were offered at a price point reasonably close to those offered by the village blacksmiths, buyers would naturally choose them even though the functionality of the rest of the ensemble was questionable. This would be especially true if the buyer didn’t expect to have to use the weapon in combat. As an example from our own culture, how many SUVs are bought with any thought of taking them off road? Furthermore, how many of those SUVs are fitted with rims and low profile tires that would make it impossible to take them off road?

Jim McDougall,
I have seen baldrics of both wool and cotton. I suspect the wool ones are older but it may be that the cotton ones just wore out and were discarded as the knives made their way out of the culture.

Sincerely,
RobT

You appear to say in your first post here that the koummya is not a useful fighting weapon, and yet above you say it is.
Your point is taken that those with no "quillons" are likely to do the user more harm than good. Yes I agree that many DO have the flaired grip but equally many do not, and YES some blades are of poor quality, but then many are also very good. So at least we seem to agree that the koummya is a fighting weapon and not just a piece of bling to be worn to impress.
Stu

Marc M. · 29th March 2025, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

You appear to say in your first post here that the koummya is not a useful fighting weapon, and yet above you say it is.
Your point is taken that those with no "quillons" are likely to do the user more harm than good. Yes I agree that many DO have the flaired grip but equally many do not, and YES some blades are of poor quality, but then many are also very good. So at least we seem to agree that the koummya is a fighting weapon and not just a piece of bling to be worn to impress.
Stu

I agree that in the past the koumiya was a weapon and not just an ornament. As in many cultures, the richer the higher the quality of an object such as the koumiya. It doesn't help that the koumiya has been made for the tourist industry for many decades, often scabbard and handle are of a decent quality and usually with a negligible blade.

Regards
Marc

Pertinax · 29th March 2025, 10:34 AM

Khanjar in Oman and the Middle East, Jambiya in Yemen, Kummiya in Morocco are elements of the national male costume. In the past, men wore it every day, and today it is usually worn at most official and social events, such as national holidays and weddings.

In some countries, teenage boys receive their first dagger if they have been circumcised.

Daggers were a symbol of regional or tribal identification, thus becoming a distinctive sign of belonging to a certain ethnic group.

Regarding the identification and division of daggers into "tourist" and "combat" is a very complex question.

A simple example: two absolutely identical kummiyas are sold at the bazaar. One was bought by a local resident and began to wear it every day, and the second was bought by a tourist and taken to his country and placed in a collection. How to identify the kummiya in the collection in this case?

werecow · 29th March 2025, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobT

No actual fighting knife or sword in the world that is intended for thrusting in actual combat lacks some way to prevent the user’s hand from sliding up the blade on impact.

Just because I like being a contrarian.

kronckew · 29th March 2025, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by werecow

Just because I like being a contrarian.

(Me too.)

Ah, but on that square section thrust only cane sword blade, it doesn't matter if your hand slides down, as the blade won't cut butter. It'd poke easily completely thru its fleshy target, so your hand wouldn't slide much.

I have a couple cane swords that DO have sharp-edged 'cutting' blades, but they're more like rapier blades, and wouldn't sever any limbs (or digits). Even those, the blade bends on impact rather than being stiff enough to enable your hand to slide down. The sharp bits are there to ensure a wide wound channel that will debilitate the victim quicker, and also can be used for annoying flic cuts to the face/hands/arms.

Koummiyah, and most jambiyah appear to be designed to be used edge down, like a Filipino ginunting, the big brother further east which is still issued and used by their marines in jungle encounters with the Moros. I've seen & posted Saudi's from the Asir regions dancing and play fighting with their own large dharia knives like that, point curving down, not up, like europeans would think. The koummiyahs just seem to more distinctly differentiate by having just a rudimentary short false edge on the outside of the curve.

werecow · 29th March 2025, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

(Me too.)

Ah, but on that square section thrust only cane sword blade, it doesn't matter if your hand slides down, as the blade won't cut butter. It'd poke easily completely thru its fleshy target, so your hand wouldn't slide much.

True, although as you note, they aren't all like that. I have this sword cane/measuring stick below (side note: it has marks for each centimeter and decimeter on the wood and measures exactly 1m), which has more of a dress sword or very light spadroon blade. It's not razor sharp and clearly isn't capable of heavy cutting, but it does have an edge.

Obviously, these are a bit of an exception, and I don't want to derail the thread.

RobT · 30th March 2025, 05:10 PM

kahnjar 1,
When I said that, “I don’t think this knife was made for or worn with any serious belief that it would have to be used in combat”, I was referring specifically to Jim McDougall’s example because of its lack of quillons (or quillion like projections if you will), not koummya in general. I maintain that any other examples without these projections were more for “show” than “go”. All of the koummya in my possession have these projections and I also maintain that the overwhelming majority of koummya shown on this forum have the necessary projections. I invite all interested forum members to search through past posts to confirm or refute this.

Marc M,
I find that those koummya I consider strictly tourist, feature low quality workmanship in both blade and dress. I think those ensembles with better to high quality dress and adequate quality blades are probably made for local sale to men who need on occasion to wear this culturally appropriate accessory but are rather sure they are not going to need to use it. Furthermore, I think that the manufacture of these formal attire koummya began in the 20th century and the dress of these items lack certain characteristics commonly found on 19th century ensembles. This is not to say that a more well to do man might not be willing to pay for a top quality blade to go with the fancy dress. Blades made in Europe would be a perfect fit for that market.

Pertinax,
For me, the answer to the question you pose lies in distinguishing between an item made for a tourist and an item bought by a tourist. Consider this example: A native New Yorker goes into a store and buys a pair of Levis for daily wear and a tourist from Paris goes into the same store and buys another pair of Levis as a souvenir. The Levis bought by the Parisian aren’t tourist Levis, they are just Levis that happened to have been bought by a tourist. Likewise, good quality, traditionally made koummya sold in a bazaar remain just that, whether they are bought by locals as part of their formal attire or bought by tourists as souvenirs. The merchant will sell his wares to anyone willing to pay.

werecow,
I think that kronckew’s point is well taken (pun shamelessly intended) but I also believe that the carrying of a sword cane speaks directly to the wearer’s expectation to have to actually fight with it. Nineteenth century sword canes are not infrequently seen at antique shows and in antique malls where they are often displayed unsheathed. Oftentimes, the cane shaft shows significant damage but the very slender blades, while in some cases rusty or stained, aren’t bent or kinked (at least as far as I can recall). I think this lack of damage indicates that they were seldom used. There are three factors that support this. First, anyone carrying a sword cane was likely well off because a poor person carrying one risked being stopped by the police who would confiscate the weapon (at the very least). In the 19th century, stop and search was entirely accepted and who was and who was not subjected to the procedure was largely dictated by economic status and race. Rich people, being of “the better sort” would be given a free pass. Thus, the gentleman armed with a sword cane would have an incredibly longer reach than would any lower class assailant armed with a non projectile concealable weapon. Secondly, 19th century society was strictly segregated by class and race. Other than those employed as support staff, poor people didn’t frequent the venues of the rich. Any poor person seen “hanging around out of place” could expect police scrutiny and, woe betide any such individual caught with a firearm. Thus street criminals, whose ranks consisted entirely of poor people, preyed on other poor people and did so in poor areas not frequented by the rich. Lastly, in the unlikely event an upperclass individual carrying a sword cane were to be attacked by a poor person, not only would the assailant be facing an opponent better armed than he, the commotion and delay caused by the intended victim’s resistance would increase the likelihood of apprehension. Given these last circumstances, unsheathing the sword cane would probably be enough to put the would be attacker to flight. Especially when you consider how life threatening a deep puncture wound would be to a poor person in the 19th century. I think sword canes were largely a matter of swagger and, if a well off person was in an area where he thought he was likely to be attacked, he had a revolver in his pocket.

Sincerely,
RobT

Jim McDougall · 30th March 2025, 05:51 PM

Guys thank you so much for the great input here on the koummya! As I have known little on these and their history and variation, I wanted to learn more on these aspects.
It seems the most common points of contention with ethnographic weapons are (1) is it a souvenir or 'tourist' example (2) how was it used, was it used? and here, with the koummya as a form, I pretty much expected these aspects to come into play.

Clearly everyone who has collected these, and with all the variations, has found many varied cases accordingly, so its fascinating to see these views all presented accordingly. Definitely a lot of perspective here, and much appreciated. !!!

Pertinax · 30th March 2025, 08:27 PM

In addition.

Thoughts out loud.

Ethnographic weapons are an addition to the national costume in peacetime, but during war the situation changes.

29th March 2025, 05:38 AM	#1
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 535	Not A Fighter Kahnjar 1, Whether or not they fit the definition of “true” quillons, the typical projections at the base of a koummya serve to prevent the user’s hand from sliding up the hilt on a thrust. I am rather amazed that you have seen more examples that, like Jim’s, don’t have this feature than do because, of the 30 koummya in my collection, all have the necessary projections. I would also point out that the overwhelming majority of koummya examples posted on this forum, have these projections. This makes sense. The koummya is a cut and thrust weapon and the thrust is the most deadly as it results in quick death by internal bleeding or slow death by sepsis. No actual fighting knife or sword in the world that is intended for thrusting in actual combat lacks some way to prevent the user’s hand from sliding up the blade on impact. As you noted, the koummya was worn on a baldric. The baldric was slung over the right shoulder and the blade was suspended at the left hip area (hence the name jambiya). However, the djellaba, the typical Moroccan male attire which was very loose fitting, would largely obscure any sheath and hilt decoration worn close to the body. Save for one example, all the koummya in my collection that have decoration on the “body” side are far more simply decorated than the side that is fully visible. The one example noted is very sparsely decorated on both sides and has other anomalies that make me suspect that it was made outside of the Moroccan culture. I don’t think that the quality of European trade blades necessarily correlates with functional weapon status. Mechanized industrial methods would allow the Europeans to easily produce blades of higher quality than could be achieved by the African village blacksmith competition. If these more attractive European blades were offered at a price point reasonably close to those offered by the village blacksmiths, buyers would naturally choose them even though the functionality of the rest of the ensemble was questionable. This would be especially true if the buyer didn’t expect to have to use the weapon in combat. As an example from our own culture, how many SUVs are bought with any thought of taking them off road? Furthermore, how many of those SUVs are fitted with rims and low profile tires that would make it impossible to take them off road? Jim McDougall, I have seen baldrics of both wool and cotton. I suspect the wool ones are older but it may be that the cotton ones just wore out and were discarded as the knives made their way out of the culture. Sincerely, RobT

30th March 2025, 05:10 PM	#8
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 535	A Few Responses kahnjar 1, When I said that, “I don’t think this knife was made for or worn with any serious belief that it would have to be used in combat”, I was referring specifically to Jim McDougall’s example because of its lack of quillons (or quillion like projections if you will), not koummya in general. I maintain that any other examples without these projections were more for “show” than “go”. All of the koummya in my possession have these projections and I also maintain that the overwhelming majority of koummya shown on this forum have the necessary projections. I invite all interested forum members to search through past posts to confirm or refute this. Marc M, I find that those koummya I consider strictly tourist, feature low quality workmanship in both blade and dress. I think those ensembles with better to high quality dress and adequate quality blades are probably made for local sale to men who need on occasion to wear this culturally appropriate accessory but are rather sure they are not going to need to use it. Furthermore, I think that the manufacture of these formal attire koummya began in the 20th century and the dress of these items lack certain characteristics commonly found on 19th century ensembles. This is not to say that a more well to do man might not be willing to pay for a top quality blade to go with the fancy dress. Blades made in Europe would be a perfect fit for that market. Pertinax, For me, the answer to the question you pose lies in distinguishing between an item made for a tourist and an item bought by a tourist. Consider this example: A native New Yorker goes into a store and buys a pair of Levis for daily wear and a tourist from Paris goes into the same store and buys another pair of Levis as a souvenir. The Levis bought by the Parisian aren’t tourist Levis, they are just Levis that happened to have been bought by a tourist. Likewise, good quality, traditionally made koummya sold in a bazaar remain just that, whether they are bought by locals as part of their formal attire or bought by tourists as souvenirs. The merchant will sell his wares to anyone willing to pay. werecow, I think that kronckew’s point is well taken (pun shamelessly intended) but I also believe that the carrying of a sword cane speaks directly to the wearer’s expectation to have to actually fight with it. Nineteenth century sword canes are not infrequently seen at antique shows and in antique malls where they are often displayed unsheathed. Oftentimes, the cane shaft shows significant damage but the very slender blades, while in some cases rusty or stained, aren’t bent or kinked (at least as far as I can recall). I think this lack of damage indicates that they were seldom used. There are three factors that support this. First, anyone carrying a sword cane was likely well off because a poor person carrying one risked being stopped by the police who would confiscate the weapon (at the very least). In the 19th century, stop and search was entirely accepted and who was and who was not subjected to the procedure was largely dictated by economic status and race. Rich people, being of “the better sort” would be given a free pass. Thus, the gentleman armed with a sword cane would have an incredibly longer reach than would any lower class assailant armed with a non projectile concealable weapon. Secondly, 19th century society was strictly segregated by class and race. Other than those employed as support staff, poor people didn’t frequent the venues of the rich. Any poor person seen “hanging around out of place” could expect police scrutiny and, woe betide any such individual caught with a firearm. Thus street criminals, whose ranks consisted entirely of poor people, preyed on other poor people and did so in poor areas not frequented by the rich. Lastly, in the unlikely event an upperclass individual carrying a sword cane were to be attacked by a poor person, not only would the assailant be facing an opponent better armed than he, the commotion and delay caused by the intended victim’s resistance would increase the likelihood of apprehension. Given these last circumstances, unsheathing the sword cane would probably be enough to put the would be attacker to flight. Especially when you consider how life threatening a deep puncture wound would be to a poor person in the 19th century. I think sword canes were largely a matter of swagger and, if a well off person was in an area where he thought he was likely to be attacked, he had a revolver in his pocket. Sincerely, RobT Last edited by RobT; 30th March 2025 at 05:22 PM. Reason: grammar

30th March 2025, 08:27 PM	#10
Pertinax Member Join Date: Dec 2023 Location: City by the Black Sea Posts: 220	In addition. Thoughts out loud. Ethnographic weapons are an addition to the national costume in peacetime, but during war the situation changes. Attached Images

29th March 2025, 10:34 AM	#4
Pertinax Member Join Date: Dec 2023 Location: City by the Black Sea Posts: 220	Khanjar in Oman and the Middle East, Jambiya in Yemen, Kummiya in Morocco are elements of the national male costume. In the past, men wore it every day, and today it is usually worn at most official and social events, such as national holidays and weddings. In some countries, teenage boys receive their first dagger if they have been circumcised. Daggers were a symbol of regional or tribal identification, thus becoming a distinctive sign of belonging to a certain ethnic group. Regarding the identification and division of daggers into "tourist" and "combat" is a very complex question. A simple example: two absolutely identical kummiyas are sold at the bazaar. One was bought by a local resident and began to wear it every day, and the second was bought by a tourist and taken to his country and placed in a collection. How to identify the kummiya in the collection in this case?

30th March 2025, 05:51 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Guys thank you so much for the great input here on the koummya! As I have known little on these and their history and variation, I wanted to learn more on these aspects. It seems the most common points of contention with ethnographic weapons are (1) is it a souvenir or 'tourist' example (2) how was it used, was it used? and here, with the koummya as a form, I pretty much expected these aspects to come into play. Clearly everyone who has collected these, and with all the variations, has found many varied cases accordingly, so its fascinating to see these views all presented accordingly. Definitely a lot of perspective here, and much appreciated. !!!