Thick knife frome Bali/Lombok

Ian · 12th March 2025, 04:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

... In Javanese society in particular, & in other Malay societies to perhaps a lesser extent, the answer to a question, or information given in general, will be what the giver of information either believes the recipient of information wishes to hear, or will be what he believes will please the recipient of information. Accuracy & truth are very much a secondary consideration.

This tendency was very much in presence during colonial times, & it makes reliance upon old sources of information doubtful, to the point where any info taken from an old source needs to be checked & cross checked before it can be accepted as being possibly accurate, & then only accurate for a given time & place.

We need to keep an open mind & to be quite flexible when dealing with what might be or what might not be correct.

How very true Alan. I have experienced this in several SE Asian countries. The desire to satisfy the thinking of foreigners, and not to contradict, is omnipresent.

A. G. Maisey · 12th March 2025, 04:40 AM

Not just foreigners Ian.

Javanese, Balinese, & SE Asian societies in general are very hierarchically structured societies, how one speaks & is spoken to is very largely dependent upon the hierarchical position of each party to an exchange, not necessarily objectively, but in accord with perception, thus, if the speaker holds the listener to be in a hierarchically higher position than himself, he will respond in conversation in a manner that he believes will please the listener (or reader).

In Jawa & Bali this applies even in the extended family context, but often not in the nuclear family context:- sometimes a wife will give her husband the sharp edge of her tongue, although culturally, especially in Bali, the wife has little value & is expected to accept whatever life may hold for her.

In Colonial times Balinese ladies as wives were held in high regard by both European & Chinese men, one major reason being that Balinese ladies had no problems with handling pork, a trait that did not extend to Javanese ladies.

In Colonial times the Europeans usually held the upper hand in relationships with indigenous peoples, so these indigenous people, sometimes even to the level of indigenous rulers, would unfailingly do their best to give information to the outsiders that they believed was expected or would be pleasing to them.

When I was living for months at a time in Palur, a small town a few kilometers out of Solo, my housekeeper was a village lady whose mother had been a court dancer who was a silir of Sinuhun (PBXII), so her grandfather was the Susuhunan of Surakarta.

My housekeeper herself was the second wife of a public servant & she was married at 17 to produce children for her husband & his first wife, the first wife was unable to produce children.

My housekeeper was totally illiterate, but she did speak very correct & beautiful Javanese.

When she began to work for me she would automatically drop to her haunches and duck-walk past me if I was sitting, she had been brought up to never have her head higher than somebody who was hierarchically above her. She would serve my meals to me from a crouched position.

This was something I found to be annoying, but it took me a couple of years to break her of this behaviour. However, this was a two edged sword, because after she finally stopped treating me as if I was God Come to Earth, she then began to treat me as an equal & not to hold back on honest answers, which was useful, but not always particularly pleasant.

With Javanese people I believe it is very wise to question & analyze all personal interaction. One can take nothing at all for granted, however a feeling of warm but arms length politeness must be maintained at all times.

All this side story comes back to the idea of beliefs & naming associated with societal & cultural matters. We must not believe everything that we encounter, we must subject all supposed knowledge to questioning & analysis.

12th March 2025, 04:40 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Not just foreigners Ian. Javanese, Balinese, & SE Asian societies in general are very hierarchically structured societies, how one speaks & is spoken to is very largely dependent upon the hierarchical position of each party to an exchange, not necessarily objectively, but in accord with perception, thus, if the speaker holds the listener to be in a hierarchically higher position than himself, he will respond in conversation in a manner that he believes will please the listener (or reader). In Jawa & Bali this applies even in the extended family context, but often not in the nuclear family context:- sometimes a wife will give her husband the sharp edge of her tongue, although culturally, especially in Bali, the wife has little value & is expected to accept whatever life may hold for her. In Colonial times Balinese ladies as wives were held in high regard by both European & Chinese men, one major reason being that Balinese ladies had no problems with handling pork, a trait that did not extend to Javanese ladies. In Colonial times the Europeans usually held the upper hand in relationships with indigenous peoples, so these indigenous people, sometimes even to the level of indigenous rulers, would unfailingly do their best to give information to the outsiders that they believed was expected or would be pleasing to them. When I was living for months at a time in Palur, a small town a few kilometers out of Solo, my housekeeper was a village lady whose mother had been a court dancer who was a silir of Sinuhun (PBXII), so her grandfather was the Susuhunan of Surakarta. My housekeeper herself was the second wife of a public servant & she was married at 17 to produce children for her husband & his first wife, the first wife was unable to produce children. My housekeeper was totally illiterate, but she did speak very correct & beautiful Javanese. When she began to work for me she would automatically drop to her haunches and duck-walk past me if I was sitting, she had been brought up to never have her head higher than somebody who was hierarchically above her. She would serve my meals to me from a crouched position. This was something I found to be annoying, but it took me a couple of years to break her of this behaviour. However, this was a two edged sword, because after she finally stopped treating me as if I was God Come to Earth, she then began to treat me as an equal & not to hold back on honest answers, which was useful, but not always particularly pleasant. With Javanese people I believe it is very wise to question & analyze all personal interaction. One can take nothing at all for granted, however a feeling of warm but arms length politeness must be maintained at all times. All this side story comes back to the idea of beliefs & naming associated with societal & cultural matters. We must not believe everything that we encounter, we must subject all supposed knowledge to questioning & analysis.