Bali ceremonial knife

Sajen · 20th December 2012, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Hi Detlef,

That's interesting.
The example you found has not got the 'monster' on the spine.
Remember my two cousins?

Hi buddy,

yes remember your both knifes. Both have the swastika ornament. The one from Charles have maybe lost the "monster" on it's spine or never have had it, I don't know. But on page 74 from the book "Traditional Weapons Of The Indonesian Archipelago" is shown an example which also don't have this "monster" nor the swastika ornament.

Regards,

Detlef

Gustav · 20th December 2012, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

But on page 74 from the book "Traditional Weapons Of The Indonesian Archipelago" is shown an example which also don't have this "monster" nor the swastika ornament.

Gene, Detlef, thank you very much for the interesting insights!

Detlef, in van Zonnevelds book depicted is the other side of the knife, which don't have ornaments. Yet you are wright about the "monster".

Sajen · 20th December 2012, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

Gene, Detlef, thank you very much for the interesting insights!

Detlef, in van Zonnevelds book depicted is the other side of the knife, which don't have ornaments. Yet you are wright about the "monster".

Hello Gustav,

yes, you are right, in Alberts book is shown the other side. But don't think that Albert will show this side when the other will be fancy.

Maybe Albert will help by this question.

Gustav · 21st December 2012, 05:33 AM

Detlef, I think, you are wright. The knife in van Zonnevelds book don't have ornaments on blade, Schmeltz also describes a plain blade with grooves on both sides. So perhaps we can see some logic here, regarding this and picture in #4:

No "monster" head = no further ornaments on the blade.

Battara · 21st December 2012, 04:14 PM

Ceremonially what were these used for?

CharlesS · 21st December 2012, 04:34 PM

Battara, apparently these are associated with funerary rites.

Atlantia · 21st December 2012, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Battara, apparently these are associated with funerary rites.

Absolutely! My own trade, which is why I rather like them.
There's a great thread somewhere with tons of pictures.......

Here we go:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13443

Albert · 21st December 2012, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Gustav,

yes, you are right, in Alberts book is shown the other side. But don't think that Albert will show this side when the other will be fancy.

Maybe Albert will help by this question.

That is correct, if the other side of the blade had been more fancy, I would have shown that one. Both sides of the blade are exactly the same.
Albert

Sajen · 21st December 2012, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Albert

That is correct, if the other side of the blade had been more fancy, I would have shown that one. Both sides of the blade are exactly the same.
Albert

Thank you very much for clarification!

Regards,

Detlef

Atlantia · 21st December 2012, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hi buddy,

yes remember your both knifes. Both have the swastika ornament. The one from Charles have maybe lost the "monster" on it's spine or never have had it, I don't know. But on page 74 from the book "Traditional Weapons Of The Indonesian Archipelago" is shown an example which also don't have this "monster" nor the swastika ornament.

Regards,

Detlef

Hi Detlef

I think these are really interesting. Is there a work that defines the various types and region specific variations?

ATB
Gene

Sajen · 21st December 2012, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Hi Detlef

I think these are really interesting. Is there a work that defines the various types and region specific variations?

ATB
Gene

Hi Gene,

not that I am aware of. But one thing is to remark: To my knowledge have the Java wedung nothing to do with the Bali tiuk pengentas.
But like I have written before, my knowledge about both knifes is very limited.

Regards,

Detlef

Gustav · 21st December 2012, 11:11 PM

I suppose - more ornamentation - more magic content. I don't think, they all are equal. We have so far: plain blades (without the "head" embellishment), blades with ornamentation (with "head"), blades with ornamentation including "Banji", which is magically a VERY important ornament (with "head").

I know, it all sounds childish. It would be interesting to hear some thoughts of a Balinese, who would share his knowledge.

Sajen · 21st December 2012, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

It would be interesting to hear some thoughts of a Balinese, who would share his knowledge.

Hello Gustav,

will try to ask a Balinese I know if he can tell us more.

Regards,

Detlef

Atlantia · 22nd December 2012, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hi Gene,

not that I am aware of. But one thing is to remark: To my knowledge have the Java wedung nothing to do with the Bali tiuk pengentas.
But like I have written before, my knowledge about both knifes is very limited.

Regards,

Detlef

Hi Detlef,

That's an interesting point. The other day I noticed this reply from Amuk in an old thread about my pair:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amuk Murugul

Hullo again Gene,

FWIW ..... I refer to mine as Balinese Blakas.

Best,

I did mean to ask him but..... my old brain... forgets things.....

Are you saying the these are not 'Wedung'? but 'tiuk pengenta'?
It's not a term I've heard before

Can you elaborate please?

Thanks buddy
Gene

Sajen · 22nd December 2012, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Hi Detlef,

That's an interesting point. The other day I noticed this reply from Amuk in an old thread about my pair:

I did mean to ask him but..... my old brain... forgets things.....

Are you saying the these are not 'Wedung'? but 'tiuk pengenta'?
It's not a term I've heard before

Can you elaborate please?

Thanks buddy
Gene

Hi Gene,

look post # 16 of this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13443, a name I have heard on Bali as well.

Regards,

Detlef

Atlantia · 22nd December 2012, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hi Gene,

look post # 16 of this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13443, a name I have heard on Bali as well.

Regards,

Detlef

Hi Detlef,

Thanks, that clears it up nicely.
So tiuk pengentas it is!

VVV · 22nd December 2012, 07:38 PM

I have noticed that the old ones usually don't have the swastika pattern, so maybe it's the other way around?
Here are two blurry cell phone pictures I shot when visiting the Klungkung palace museum. There seems to be a difference between the ceremonial axe and this "household knife", both in use and name.

Michael

PS I have one and used to have an additional that I traded. One is plain and the other have an ornamented blade. Both of them have this kind of scabbard, old style makara hilt, the "monster" protrusion and inlay on the back of the blade.
I suspect that the makara hilt, more than if there is inlay on the blade, is an age indicator.

22nd December 2012, 07:38 PM	#17
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	I have noticed that the old ones usually don't have the swastika pattern, so maybe it's the other way around? Here are two blurry cell phone pictures I shot when visiting the Klungkung palace museum. There seems to be a difference between the ceremonial axe and this "household knife", both in use and name. Michael PS I have one and used to have an additional that I traded. One is plain and the other have an ornamented blade. Both of them have this kind of scabbard, old style makara hilt, the "monster" protrusion and inlay on the back of the blade. I suspect that the makara hilt, more than if there is inlay on the blade, is an age indicator. Attached Images Last edited by VVV; 22nd December 2012 at 07:49 PM. Reason: added PS

21st December 2012, 05:33 AM	#4
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,280	Detlef, I think, you are wright. The knife in van Zonnevelds book don't have ornaments on blade, Schmeltz also describes a plain blade with grooves on both sides. So perhaps we can see some logic here, regarding this and picture in #4: No "monster" head = no further ornaments on the blade.

21st December 2012, 04:14 PM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	Ceremonially what were these used for?

21st December 2012, 04:34 PM	#6
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	Battara, apparently these are associated with funerary rites.

21st December 2012, 11:11 PM	#12
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,280	I suppose - more ornamentation - more magic content. I don't think, they all are equal. We have so far: plain blades (without the "head" embellishment), blades with ornamentation (with "head"), blades with ornamentation including "Banji", which is magically a VERY important ornament (with "head"). I know, it all sounds childish. It would be interesting to hear some thoughts of a Balinese, who would share his knowledge.