Takouba with five fullers

[Marc M.]

Originally Posted by Helleri

I'm going to go ahead and suggest that 5 fullers was a mechanical choice. For any not aware, the purpose of a fuller is to selectively strengthen a blade against flexing against it's width along it's long axis without adding or subtracting weight (ideally they are a hammer work feature).

While popular myth holds that they are "blood grooves"; That somehow pocket air or allow blood to flow making a blade easier to cut or thrust with. A wet handle from blood or more surface area causing less friction while passing through an elastic medium, simply makes no sense, and to the best of my knowledge has never been demonstrated to be the case.

Some things we do know about fullers from stress tests and photoelastic photography (looks at optical changes in a material through deformation) is that they seem to work best when dome/half cylinder/semi circle shaped in cross section; When spacing from another is not greater than the width of one; When depth is equal to the width of one.
[Note: if yall really want me to, I can dig all that info up again, but it's a few computers back now and I am in process of moving so might be a while.]

We also have to consider that different blades vary in width and ultimate thickness. So it's easier to put larger and fewer fullers on a thicker blade that has a strong lenticular, wedge, or diamond shape. Because thicker means they can afford to be deeper, thus wider, and thus fewer.

personally I think this blade has the right amount of fullers for it's apparent width vs thickness and what it looks like they were trying to do, which was probably to have differential flexibility throughout the blade but with uniform tempering and heat treatment. Or in other words the maker seems to have been looking to do the most mechanically with the least work. Hot forged fullering is pretty quick and easy compared to careful differential tempering and heat treating.

Correct, fullers make a blade lighter and stiffer. The lighter a blade is the faster you can move it and stiff enough that during that movement and under impact it doesn't go out of all directions.

Best regards
Marc

[Edster]

Lee,

You certainly had a harrowing experience, but ultimately no doubt exciting and rewarding.

Although it might be a stretch, I wonder if the fuller type terms giving by the antique dealer would have any parallel meanings or what ever with the five, three and one wide & deep fuller types identified for the Kaskara. I tried to find on-line translations in Tamaskek and Tamahaq as Tuareg langages, but no luck. There are paid sites that I did not pursue.

Best,
Ed

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Edster

Lee,

You certainly had a harrowing experience, but ultimately no doubt exciting and rewarding.

Although it might be a stretch, I wonder if the fuller type terms giving by the antique dealer would have any parallel meanings or what ever with the five, three and one wide & deep fuller types identified for the Kaskara. I tried to find on-line translations in Tamaskek and Tamahaq as Tuareg langages, but no luck. There are paid sites that I did not pursue.

Best,
Ed

Well noted! we indeed have our own INDIANA JONES here!!! and I have always enjoyed the exciting stories of his adventures! Now there's another book!

Ed, on these terms being filtered through tribal networks diffusing along nomadic territorial and trade routes it seems some did indeed transmit in degree. However, I spent over a decade trying to find the origin of the term 'kaskara', which is entirely unknown in the Sudan, the sword known only as sa'if. One tribal man I once spoke with (I forget which tribe or region but was Sudan) said they called the sword (kaskara) 'cross'.

It was Iain Norman who found that the term actually came from a Baghirmi term for sword (if I recall correctly). It seems this was somewhat implied by Burton in 1884, but despite his notoriety as a linguist and heavily detailed text and footnotes, this instance was void of explanation. It was as far as I have known the first use of the term 'kaskara'.
Thereafter, writers began using the term for these broadswords, which had been the term used for them in descriptions earlier.

Helleri,
Beautifully explained dynamics of sword blades and fullering! I never realized this before, that it was not stock removal but resituating the metal present as described. Thank you.

[Helleri]

Originally Posted by Marc M.

Correct, fullers make a blade lighter and stiffer. The lighter a blade is the faster you can move it and stiff enough that during that movement and under impact it doesn't go out of all directions.

Best regards
Marc

Not lighter. Fullers (when properly made) are a hammered in feature. The metal isn't going anywhere. You compress it in one place; It swells out in another. That swelling can actually be seen in this piece to great effect. Notice the angle change as soon as the fuller stops. There is as much metal before fullering as there is immediately after.

It's not that they would have had to use more metal if not fullering either to get the same effect. Again there's differential heat treatment and tempering. to be clear tempering is hardening and heat treatment is softening. One usually heat treats/anneals a blade to work it, then tempers to harden it back up when work is completely. The amount of flexibility is determined by the temperature at which it is cooled from and the rate of cooling.

Now differential tempering and heat treatment is when the blade smith mentally divides the blade into quadrants. They carefully control the handling of each quadrant so that the blade has different properties of flexibility vs. hardness throughout it. Two quadrants is the easiest degree to do this to. You can temper up the whole blade. Then bring the upper quadrant back down a bit to make it more flexible without effecting the lower quadrant.

You can achieve this without fullering. So you don't need to have more metal to start with if you don't fuller. But it's just easier to fuller. Because if you give one part of the blade a lot more surface area than another. Then these quadrants are more physical than just lines you draw in your head about where you want the properties to change. Because an area of metal with a lot more surface area than another is going to respond differently to the same amount of heat and quench applied uniformly.

Fullering before tempering if done right should make it so that differential tempering and heat treatment isn't necessary. But even if you do it differentially anyway the fullering makes that easier to do without messing up. Because you really only get one or two shots at it when factoring in metal fatigue. Push it much further and you'll get cracks. So it's important to get it right.

It can be hard to imagine if you haven't done it or seen it done up close. It looks like they took metal way to make those grooves. But they really didn't. The metal just got moved around.

[Marc M.]

Originally Posted by Helleri

Not lighter. Fullers (when properly made) are a hammered in feature. The metal isn't going anywhere. You compress it in one place; It swells out in another. That swelling can actually be seen in this piece to great effect. Notice the angle change as soon as the fuller stops. There is as much metal before fullering as there is immediately after.

It's not that they would have had to use more metal if not fullering either to get the same effect. Again there's differential heat treatment and tempering. to be clear tempering is hardening and heat treatment is softening. One usually heat treats/anneals a blade to work it, then tempers to harden it back up when work is completely. The amount of flexibility is determined by the temperature at which it is cooled from and the rate of cooling.

Now differential tempering and heat treatment is when the blade smith mentally divides the blade into quadrants. They carefully control the handling of each quadrant so that the blade has different properties of flexibility vs. hardness throughout it. Two quadrants is the easiest degree to do this to. You can temper up the whole blade. Then bring the upper quadrant back down a bit to make it more flexible without effecting the lower quadrant.

You can achieve this without fullering. So you don't need to have more metal to start with if you don't fuller. But it's just easier to fuller. Because if you give one part of the blade a lot more surface area than another. Then these quadrants are more physical than just lines you draw in your head about where you want the properties to change. Because an area of metal with a lot more surface area than another is going to respond differently to the same amount of heat and quench applied uniformly.

Fullering before tempering if done right should make it so that differential tempering and heat treatment isn't necessary. But even if you do it differentially anyway the fullering makes that easier to do without messing up. Because you really only get one or two shots at it when factoring in metal fatigue. Push it much further and you'll get cracks. So it's important to get it right.

It can be hard to imagine if you haven't done it or seen it done up close. It looks like they took metal way to make those grooves. But they really didn't. The metal just got moved around.

Hi Helleri
I can imagine what you write. I am/was a blacksmith, not a bladesmith but rather architectural, banisters etc in baroque, art nouveau, art deco.
Over the years I did make a number of swords and knives as trials, especially for my son who loved knights and swords as a child.
You are right about fullers, traditionally they are forged or made with a drawknife. In the case of forged fullers indeed no material is taken away but driven to the side, as seen on the takouba I posted here.That I did not mention such a thing is probably because I take it for granted and think everyone sees it, a little too casual of me.
Once I made a sword as a test out of a leaf spring from my triumph spitfire, double edge and not hardened or any heat treatment. Together with a friend we indulged ourselves on a few large logs. The blade did not deform and the cutting edge passed the test. Under impact you could feel and see the blade flex.
About the less weight of fullers in a blade I partially agree regarding narrow, short fullers. There and against a wide fuller running from handle to tip does contribute to lower weight. I also mean that the use of fullers and ribs allows for a thinner blade. In my collection of Congolese weapons, there are many blades that are quite thin but all have fullers and ribs. However, I have yet to read any record anywhere that states that the African blacksmith applied the steel hardening process.Since the finishing of the blades was done in almost cold condition I assume that they removed the stress thus hammered into the steel by heating them slightly.
If anyone knows of such a report please let me know.

Best regards
marc

[Changdao]

Originally Posted by Marc M.

Hi Helleri
I can imagine what you write. I am/was a blacksmith, not a bladesmith but rather architectural, banisters etc in baroque, art nouveau, art deco.
Over the years I did make a number of swords and knives as trials, especially for my son who loved knights and swords as a child.
You are right about fullers, traditionally they are forged or made with a drawknife. In the case of forged fullers indeed no material is taken away but driven to the side, as seen on the takouba I posted here.That I did not mention such a thing is probably because I take it for granted and think everyone sees it, a little too casual of me.
Once I made a sword as a test out of a leaf spring from my triumph spitfire, double edge and not hardened or any heat treatment. Together with a friend we indulged ourselves on a few large logs. The blade did not deform and the cutting edge passed the test. Under impact you could feel and see the blade flex.
About the less weight of fullers in a blade I partially agree regarding narrow, short fullers. There and against a wide fuller running from handle to tip does contribute to lower weight. I also mean that the use of fullers and ribs allows for a thinner blade. In my collection of Congolese weapons, there are many blades that are quite thin but all have fullers and ribs. However, I have yet to read any record anywhere that states that the African blacksmith applied the steel hardening process.Since the finishing of the blades was done in almost cold condition I assume that they removed the stress thus hammered into the steel by heating them slightly.
If anyone knows of such a report please let me know.

Best regards
marc

I believe that in Schweinfurth's writings about his experiences in Central Africa there are some excerpts about forging, but I'm not sure how detailed they are.

[Lee]

If I recall correctly after a quarter of a century, my informant on the nomenclature for the variations of Tuareg swords and spears (#19 above) is the same antiques dealer featured in a recent Al Jazeera feature on the fortunes of Agadez. I believe that I enjoyed a glass of ataya in his shop on that occasion.