1630s English basket hilts

dralin23 · 19th October 2023, 05:02 PM

hello jim,
Thank you for your very interesting explanation of the origins of this sword name. It was unknown to me and I hadn't researched it yet.
In any case, it is really instructive for me to explain that these masks or faces on the basket are supposed to be the head of the killed king.
In any case, there is always enough material left over to discuss and I'm also happy that you can learn completely new things about your swords here on the forum.

Jim McDougall · 19th October 2023, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dralin23

hello jim,
Thank you for your very interesting explanation of the origins of this sword name. It was unknown to me and I hadn't researched it yet.
In any case, it is really instructive for me to explain that these masks or faces on the basket are supposed to be the head of the killed king.
In any case, there is always enough material left over to discuss and I'm also happy that you can learn completely new things about your swords here on the forum.

Absolutely my pleasure!

and I learn from every example put up for discussion, the research, and sharing of information. I have always believed we all learn together here in these great threads. The notion of the 'death mask' is but one of the many fanciful notions created by early writers and extensions of popular lore surrounding historic lore and figures. These 'collectors terms' are many and always intriguing in how they came about.
Again, yours is a wonderful example.

urbanspaceman · 20th October 2023, 10:55 AM

Hi Jim.
Well mentioned; it has long been my belief that many Reivers carried a schiavona.
I am certain Peter has details of the mercenary activities of the disinherited and outlawed border clans who were available for hire abroad.
Equally, as you point out, the obsession with Andrea Ferara blades and Bonnie Prince Charlie strengthens the Italian connection.
I should add this into the mix:
It is interesting that the first nationwide mention of a basket hilt referred to it as "Irish" because there is also this recently suggested business of 'mortuary' hilts being made in Islay which was the original home of the Dalriadic tribes that encompassed North Eastern Eire as well as Argyle.
I'm sniffing around this issue.

Peter Hudson · 28th October 2023, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Hi Jim.
Well mentioned; it has long been my belief that many Reivers carried a schiavona.
I am certain Peter has details of the mercenary activities of the disinherited and outlawed border clans who were available for hire abroad.
Equally, as you point out, the obsession with Andrea Ferara blades and Bonnie Prince Charlie strengthens the Italian connection.
I should add this into the mix:
It is interesting that the first nationwide mention of a basket hilt referred to it as "Irish" because there is also this recently suggested business of 'mortuary' hilts being made in Islay which was the original home of the Dalriadic tribes that encompassed North Eastern Eire as well as Argyle.
I'm sniffing around this issue.

Hello Keith...Indeed you have a point! I looked up Border Reiver Swords on the Web and it is clearly there...thus I place it below. Not surprising noting how the flow of mercenaries back and forth to and from Europe and its many wars. A lot of these weapons would naturally have remained in the homes of Border Reivers simply through the habit of these men simply flowing back to civilian life after a spell abroad...In fact it ws also the habit of Henry VIII to release men fro the payroll once they had returned from time overseas in European skirmishes and wars...Another Border Reiver sword I often see noted in documents is the Winger.
In another web related search I noted that the so called Schiavana shown here could be described more accurately ...From https://fallingangelslosthighways.bl...in-museum.html
I Quote" And whilst the weapon above is strictly speaking not a Schiavona… since the developed form of that weapon is unlikely to have been in use this early…. then it is quite possible that this may be the prototype, and therefore it is probably best referred to as a “Germanic, Schiavona Prototype.”Unquote.

Regards Peter.

Peter Hudson · 28th October 2023, 02:10 PM

please see https://fallingangelslosthighways.bl...11-curved.html for some detail about the WHINJER .....also shown there on an ancient woodcut. Clearly displayed as a curved sword with a heavy backblade. Some suggest the word WHINJER comes from the word HANGER. ...

urbanspaceman · 28th October 2023, 09:32 PM

Hi Peter. There is so much fascinating and exclusive material on Brian's website that it needs to be brought to everyone's attention.
Your links are a perfect way of achieving this, well done.

Jim McDougall · 29th October 2023, 05:17 PM

Peter, RESOUNDING!!
Your online search skills have always amazed me, much in the way that Keith has always been a super sleuth in primary research! I walk among giants

This is a perfect example of how the 'schiavona' has become regarded as one of the Border Reivers edged weapons, and how these 'Germanic' basket hilted swords became a facilitating factor in the evolution of 'British' basket hilts.

It has been well established that the 'basket hilt' was in use in primary forms in England as evidenced by the "Mary Rose' examples of the 16th century, but how these evolved into the Highland basket hilt seems likely to have degree of catalyst via these Border regions.

The generally held theory has always been that the Highland basket hilt (Irish hilt termed in period) owed its inspiration to the northern 'Germanic' short, stout hangers (dusagge, Sinclair et al) which were often with these developed , 'caged' hilts. This was based on the fact that Scottish mercenaries were often on campaign on retainer in many European regions.
This notably also gave us the Gaelic term 'turcael' (=cf. Turkish) for the curved blades occasionally on basket hilts, inspired by the curved sabers of 'Turkish' form in the campaigns in East Europe.

Victorian arms writers even presumed that due to the 'caged' effect of the fully developed basket hilts similar to schiavona, this presumed the possible inspiration came from Italy. This theory was of course defeated (Blair, 1980) by the fact that the 'trellis' construction of the schiavona was quite different than the shield and saltire of British basket hilts. This of course I have described in my earlier posts, but wanted to reiterate here.

However, the connection may be in degree reconsidered in that these 'Germanic schiavona' basket hilts of 16th century, which indeed influenced the basket hilt in Great Britain, equally seems to have lent to the likely evolution of the schiavona (proper) in Italy. Actually the 'root' for the schiavona has always been deemed from the simple S guard swords of Hungary which were prevalent in Croatia. The Croatians were of course diplomatically aligned with Venice, where the ultimate development of the schiavona independently evolved.

I like the writing (and thinking) of the writer in the link re: the 'hanger' formerly in the Border Reivers museum (c.1560) and his notes on the 'Maltese cross' on the pommel. The cross hatch is missing on one arm of the cross, and he 'dares' (contrary to academic convention) to offer the suggestion of 'hidden meaning' in that deliberate omission, noting the 'fanciful' nature. This is a term I have become notably familiar with in many such suggestions I have offered over the years in investigating markings and motifs.

The important notes on the etymological connections with hanger/whinger (various spellings) are well placed as these terms (as well as cutlass') are often used interchangeably in period records, accounts and references.

20th October 2023, 10:55 AM	#3
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	Schiavona and Reiver Hi Jim. Well mentioned; it has long been my belief that many Reivers carried a schiavona. I am certain Peter has details of the mercenary activities of the disinherited and outlawed border clans who were available for hire abroad. Equally, as you point out, the obsession with Andrea Ferara blades and Bonnie Prince Charlie strengthens the Italian connection. I should add this into the mix: It is interesting that the first nationwide mention of a basket hilt referred to it as "Irish" because there is also this recently suggested business of 'mortuary' hilts being made in Islay which was the original home of the Dalriadic tribes that encompassed North Eastern Eire as well as Argyle. I'm sniffing around this issue.

28th October 2023, 02:10 PM	#5
Peter Hudson Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 315	please see https://fallingangelslosthighways.bl...11-curved.html for some detail about the WHINJER .....also shown there on an ancient woodcut. Clearly displayed as a curved sword with a heavy backblade. Some suggest the word WHINJER comes from the word HANGER. ... Last edited by Peter Hudson; 28th October 2023 at 04:13 PM.

28th October 2023, 09:32 PM	#6
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	Brian Moffat Hi Peter. There is so much fascinating and exclusive material on Brian's website that it needs to be brought to everyone's attention. Your links are a perfect way of achieving this, well done.

19th October 2023, 05:02 PM	#1
dralin23 Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 194	hello jim, Thank you for your very interesting explanation of the origins of this sword name. It was unknown to me and I hadn't researched it yet. In any case, it is really instructive for me to explain that these masks or faces on the basket are supposed to be the head of the killed king. In any case, there is always enough material left over to discuss and I'm also happy that you can learn completely new things about your swords here on the forum.

29th October 2023, 05:17 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	Peter, RESOUNDING!! Your online search skills have always amazed me, much in the way that Keith has always been a super sleuth in primary research! I walk among giants This is a perfect example of how the 'schiavona' has become regarded as one of the Border Reivers edged weapons, and how these 'Germanic' basket hilted swords became a facilitating factor in the evolution of 'British' basket hilts. It has been well established that the 'basket hilt' was in use in primary forms in England as evidenced by the "Mary Rose' examples of the 16th century, but how these evolved into the Highland basket hilt seems likely to have degree of catalyst via these Border regions. The generally held theory has always been that the Highland basket hilt (Irish hilt termed in period) owed its inspiration to the northern 'Germanic' short, stout hangers (dusagge, Sinclair et al) which were often with these developed , 'caged' hilts. This was based on the fact that Scottish mercenaries were often on campaign on retainer in many European regions. This notably also gave us the Gaelic term 'turcael' (=cf. Turkish) for the curved blades occasionally on basket hilts, inspired by the curved sabers of 'Turkish' form in the campaigns in East Europe. Victorian arms writers even presumed that due to the 'caged' effect of the fully developed basket hilts similar to schiavona, this presumed the possible inspiration came from Italy. This theory was of course defeated (Blair, 1980) by the fact that the 'trellis' construction of the schiavona was quite different than the shield and saltire of British basket hilts. This of course I have described in my earlier posts, but wanted to reiterate here. However, the connection may be in degree reconsidered in that these 'Germanic schiavona' basket hilts of 16th century, which indeed influenced the basket hilt in Great Britain, equally seems to have lent to the likely evolution of the schiavona (proper) in Italy. Actually the 'root' for the schiavona has always been deemed from the simple S guard swords of Hungary which were prevalent in Croatia. The Croatians were of course diplomatically aligned with Venice, where the ultimate development of the schiavona independently evolved. I like the writing (and thinking) of the writer in the link re: the 'hanger' formerly in the Border Reivers museum (c.1560) and his notes on the 'Maltese cross' on the pommel. The cross hatch is missing on one arm of the cross, and he 'dares' (contrary to academic convention) to offer the suggestion of 'hidden meaning' in that deliberate omission, noting the 'fanciful' nature. This is a term I have become notably familiar with in many such suggestions I have offered over the years in investigating markings and motifs. The important notes on the etymological connections with hanger/whinger (various spellings) are well placed as these terms (as well as cutlass') are often used interchangeably in period records, accounts and references.