1630s English basket hilts

[urbanspaceman]

Thank-you Fernando... yes, I am familiar with that material.
Those luxurious British basket hilts shown are what have ended-up in museums globally, but, although contemporary, they were private purchases.
4,356 swords meant munition's grade and this is what I am interested in.
At that time we were no longer engaged in the five years of Anglo-Spanish war ('25-'30); plus, we had also fought the French for a couple of years '27-'29, so we would have certainly needed to replenish munitions.
However, ongoing, we were helping in the Dutch-Portuguese war and sixty years of that certainly required constant supplies of serviceable weapons.
You can see why there was money to be made supplying the Tower. Stone invested heavily but was well rewarded. He supplied complete outfits too: sword, scabbard, belt and etc.
So, in 1631, what would an English/British munitions grade basket used in the Dutch-Portuguese war have looked like?

[urbanspaceman]

Hey Jim, I was busy writing at the same time.
I'd looked at the early Mortuary and half-baskets but felt they were much too flimsy for extensive militia arming.

Incidentally, I saw reference made to Mortuary hilts having come from Islay; and while there was a huge black-smithing empire in long-term existence there, I don't know why we would buy our kit from the farthest point in the British Isles. Especially back then, when there was no whisky coming from there. The only thing they had to offer was peat... and trouble.

As I mentioned, Stone was heavily criticised for making his hilts from cast brass, which the Cutlers Company regarded as too breakable, unlike iron.
So, that tends towards Walloons doesn't it? Were they in use here back then?

[Jim McDougall]

I think the munitions grade term would apply to the numbers of forms of swords with various configurations of saltires and shields in the 16th century (even latter 15th) through Europe and considered 'basket hilt' prototypes.

These were well known in England, and one in particular is this one found on the 'Mary Rose' which sank in 1545. While this one is mostly intact, there was evidence of at least two others like it or similar found in concretions. This suggests the military 'munitions' category.
In subsequent years these kinds of 'basket' hilted swords were also well known in the Netherlands, as shown in numerous examples in the paper by the late Claude Blair "The Early Basket Hilt in Britain" ("Scottish Weapons and Fortifications 1100-1800" ed. David Caldwell, 1981).

It is clear that these basket hilt types (which indeed inspired the 'mortuary' type half basket as well as fully developed Highland basket hilt (then called Irish) were well circulating in the times in question. Most of the examples in Blair seem to date around 1570s or slightly later, and likely the form or perhaps even actual examples remained in use or actively issued for some time .

The question is, as noted, what sort of 'basket hilts' would have been provided to the Tower in 1631. We can only guess they must have been of this form loosely followed, if Stone indeed produced them. Or did Stone, the clever enterpreneur simply provide stores of surplus swords from these earlier campaigns? The Hounslow enterprise was hardly well tooled by 1631 (the Germans brought there in 1629).
It remains a good question.

[Jim McDougall]

Keith, we seem to be crossing posts! Good note on walloons, but they would not be termed basket hilts. Trying to find more on Stone and his 'enterprises'. As Fernando has observed, and we have found in earlier study, he was hardly a sword 'maker', but more an enterprising dealer. The note on brass is interesting and another reason he liked being outside the scope of the Cutlers Co.

[Jim McDougall]

In "British Military Swords" by Stuart Mowbray, 2013, p.42
"...Stone was a member of the Cutlers Co.who was already supplying large consignments of IMPORTED SWORDS to the ordnance".
Referring to the bringing in of German smiths from Holland in 1629. It is noted he became associated with Hounslow from then until the exodus of many of the smiths to Oxford in 1642 but it took some time to get things running.

This 'basket' , Dutch, c. 1560, seems to be of the general form of that period in Netherlands and in England (the commonality between Dutch and English swords seems well established) and likely for some time. It is interesting of course that when Charles I recruited German smiths in 1629, they came from Holland. In these times in England swords which were often German were termed 'Dutch', with 'duetsche' being the intended term.

the page from Blair, (1981, op.cit.).

[urbanspaceman]

I think the Mary Rose sword is the answer; I have to confess to complete ignorance regarding the Mary Rose but then I'm still very much climbing a steep learning curve in almost all aspects of arms and militaria.
Holland does keep appearing on the radar however.
Given our long standing (60 years) involvement in the Dutch/Portuguese war, it would not surprise me if those basket hilts (as posted) were exactly what Stone was supplying.
I suggested that after the other two wars recently ended that we may have needed serious re-arming, but perhaps Stone was re-furbishing arms returned home to rust.
The issue of the rapidity of supply by Stone is well taken: 3,500+ swords in two years staring from scratch seems rather unlikely.
There was a constant war going on between Stone and the Cutlers Company; it is probably impossible to establish the rights and wrongs of the issues, considering just how many issues there were in attendance at any given moment.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

I think the Mary Rose sword is the answer; I have to confess to complete ignorance regarding the Mary Rose but then I'm still very much climbing a steep learning curve in almost all aspects of arms and militaria.
Holland does keep appearing on the radar however.
Given our long standing (60 years) involvement in the Dutch/Portuguese war, it would not surprise me if those basket hilts (as posted) were exactly what Stone was supplying.
I suggested that after the other two wars recently ended that we may have needed serious re-arming, but perhaps Stone was re-furbishing arms returned home to rust.
The issue of the rapidity of supply by Stone is well taken: 3,500+ swords in two years staring from scratch seems rather unlikely.
There was a constant war going on between Stone and the Cutlers Company; it is probably impossible to establish the rights and wrongs of the issues, considering just how many issues there were in attendance at any given moment.

I have had to reread much of the detail on the Mary Rose as I cannot claim any particular knowledge on this most historic shipwreck. However in looking through details today, I was surprised to discover there was not just one of the basket type swords, but several (which did not survive physically but details in concretion revealed their shapes etc) so clearly they were in use in numbers.
Similar types of basket hilt had been known in England even earlier, with examples found in the Jamestown colony in America in 1607, and one found in the wreck of the "Sea Venture" off Bermuda in 1609 (the inspiration for Shakespeares "The Tempest"). Mazansky did a radiological study of this sword in several articles.

From what I have understood, while Stone had membership in the Cutlers Co. he operated outside the jurisdictional boundaries, and as the Hounslow operation had been sanctioned by Charles I, he sort of had that in his favor so was basically left alone. The entire circumstances involving imported blades, swords etc. were wrought with intrigues, and the entirety of these matters for generations is clouded with mystery and deception, much of which you have set straight in your research and book. Yet much remains unclear, and may never be revealed for certain.

All of this has revealed the extensive and often complex development of the basket hilt leading to that of the Highland basket hilt which was actually earlier than often realized and apparently evolved in English and European contexts prior to the Scottish adoption in the now familiar forms.

[Peter Hudson]

From; https://maryrose.org/meet-the-soldiers/

[fernando]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

... So, in 1631, what would an English/British munitions grade basket used in the Dutch-Portuguese war have looked like?...

How about considering some of the examples pictured in the above (myArmoury) link ?