I'd like to see cross cultural sundang melayu kerises

A. G. Maisey · 6th July 2023, 09:50 PM

Pasar Turi, Surabaya.

Gustav · 7th July 2023, 01:52 AM

Well, Malay Sundang can have Pamor exactly like their Moro counterparts, but in diference of them also can have Gonjo with Pamor.

There are Malay Sundang which are parts of Perak and Terengganu regalia at least from second half of 19th cent.

Rick · 7th July 2023, 06:02 AM

There is also the detail of the blade's tang; many of the alleged Malay examples have a round tang; most Moro krises have a flat tang.

milandro · 7th July 2023, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

There is also the detail of the blade's tang; many of the alleged Malay examples have a round tang; most Moro krises have a flat tang.

thank you, I would certainly like to see some examples of your choice

A. G. Maisey · 7th July 2023, 10:17 PM

Post #1 shows a keris & dress that was most probably released to the world through Pasar Turi in Surabaya. The keris itself, ie, blade has been made by Madurese craftsmen in either Sumenep area of Madura or in Surabaya & hinterland. Time frame is post 1980. This is not a guess.

In Post 11 the keris on the reddish backcloth has the same or similar parentage. Again, not a guess.

The keris with 7 luk & twist core presents every indication that it is 19th century Brunei. My opinion in this case is based on a similar keris that I have in my care & that was the state execution keris of Brunei, dating from 1842, and the fact that the only other keris of this type that I have handled also came from Brunei.

Gavin Nugent · 7th July 2023, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

Well, Malay Sundang can have Pamor exactly like their Moro counterparts, but in diference of them also can have Gonjo with Pamor.

There are Malay Sundang which are parts of Perak and Terengganu regalia at least from second half of 19th cent.

Perfectly noted Gustav. I've one such piece here with twistcore blade and gongo, also a suasa strap and grip... speaking with another learned collector here, he has suggested late 18th century for its age.

Gavin

milandro · 7th July 2023, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

Perfectly noted Gustav. I've one such piece here with twistcore blade and gongo, also a suasa strap and grip... speaking with another learned collector here, he has suggested late 18th century for its age.

Gavin

would like to see this example, please

Sajen · 7th July 2023, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

Well, Malay Sundang can have Pamor exactly like their Moro counterparts, but in diference of them also can have Gonjo with Pamor.

Yes, they can be laminated for sure but don't get etched with warangan like the recent example Milandro has shown. I think that he means this.

milandro · 7th July 2023, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Yes, they can be laminated for sure but don't get etched with warangan like the recent example Milandro has shown. I think that he means this.

yes, this is what I mean.

I have seen a number of modernly made Melayu Sundang kerises with pamor made visible and evident by washing with Warangan on internet .

If you look for the term " Sundang Melayu" Keris" you will come across several and also on Youtube there are a number of videos by Malay makers and collectors.

Undoubtedly the vaste majority are modern made krises (much frowned upon here I gather) . I would still like to see examples. I am not at liberty to publish what I can see because they are all items for sale (with the exception of the one shown above which was auctioned a long time ago and beloved at that time to a Dutch dealer ).

In the past there have been posts showing such krises

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=98814

there are also other one on the other forum like this sulu sundang twist core which may qualify

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=17344&page=1

David · 10th July 2023, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milandro

Undoubtedly the vaste majority are modern made krises (much frowned upon here I gather) .

I see no reason to frown upon modern made keris per se. The keris is a living art form and there are many modern keris being made which are quite good. What i might have less regard for, however, is a modern blade made by Madurese smiths presenting itself as a Moro kris, or something like that.
I don't think the archaic kris with the twist core you show in post #11 qualifies as as the type of Sundang Melayu you are seeking answers about. Nice kris though.

A. G. Maisey · 10th July 2023, 09:57 PM

Gustav, in respect of geographic location of origin of the keris in post 11.

When relative certainty is lacking, we can hypothesise with relative freedom. I can only be relatively certain about a very limited number of things, & I try not to hypothesise about things where I lack sufficient data.

My opinion of place of origin of the post #11 keris is based on very limited certainty: the presence of a limited number of indicators that match with a limited number of keris from a known location.

However, what I do know with absolute certainty from Jawa is that the overall form of keris and the characteristics of keris detail do change from period to period, geographic location to geographic location, and maker to maker, but these changes occur within defined parameters. I believe it is reasonable to assume that a similar pattern of change can occur in other types of keris.

In respect of the number of luk in post #11. My initial professional training was in accountancy, one of the skills I learnt quite early in life was to add 2 + 2 and make 5 --- or 3 --- or in fact any number that might fill the need.

It is not such a big jump to turn a 5 into 7.

Gavin Nugent · 10th July 2023, 10:45 PM

It is interesting Gustav, the reference you note about Jasper & Pirngadie and their studies. Has the work been published?

I was sharing similar imagery to an author about the subtleties of Malay state influenced Sundang in the Borneo and Sulu regions recently, although that seems to have died a natural death...

The Malay states of Northern Borneo is a fascinating region and it is quite easy to see influence from Terengganu for me, not so much Kelantan, my eye is not yet trained to pinpoint these aspects.

I still struggle with modern keris, only in so far as misinformation and those mimicking other cultural materials.
There are thousands of "Malay" types that are modern Java made keris, made in the name of commerce.
They are bought in to Malaysia and sold on. The issue I am seeing more and more is many of these are being bought at the point of sale in Malaysia and then aged, mixed a little with other components, sometimes non regionally correct dress and sold to new collectors as old pieces over and over and over again...

Attached are a couple other other images.
A 3 luk kris that retains a stain in the parts not over polished.
The other the sundang I referenced with the twist core gonjo.

Gavin

Gustav · 8th July 2023, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Yes, they can be laminated for sure but don't get etched with warangan like the recent example Milandro has shown. I think that he means this.

I am not so sure about that, having seen at least one Malay Sundang WITHOUT Pamor stained pitch black, and the stain wasn't new. In this case I think it was stained with realgar indeed.

Of course there are also other staining methods used on Malay Peninsula, with contrast being not so bold. I suppose the Sundang in the picture from 1907 has a lighter stain, and Albert's Sundang here has traces of what seems to be an older stain:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=Malay+sundang

A. G. Maisey · 8th July 2023, 10:44 PM

Re my post #13

"The keris with 7 luk & twist core presents every indication that it is 19th century Brunei. My opinion in this case is based on a similar keris that I have in my care & that was the state execution keris of Brunei, dating from 1842, and the fact that the only other keris of this type that I have handled also came from Brunei."

I have had a chance to get back to my notes, I have in fact seen several of this type of keris, but have only handled two, mine & one other.

Gustav · 9th July 2023, 01:20 AM

Alan,

I guess, this Sundang could be quite similar to your specimen from Brunei.
I understand why certain people would attribute it to a Madura smith. I am quite sure, there were Madura smiths working on Peninsula too. On the other hand, wasn't Jasper&Pirngadie writing about smiths from Terengganu working in malay parts of Borneo? Some kind of geographical loop, which is very acceptable.

Sundang from #11 has a quite distinct Luk shape, and this Luk shape points to Terengganu. Kembang Kacang is different from the example I posted here below. Its sheath is (or better say, was, for antique examples) specifically Kelantan, which borders to Terengganu.

By the way, that Sundang from #11 is Luk 5, not 7.

7th July 2023, 06:02 AM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Observation There is also the detail of the blade's tang; many of the alleged Malay examples have a round tang; most Moro krises have a flat tang.

10th July 2023, 10:45 PM	#12
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	It is interesting Gustav, the reference you note about Jasper & Pirngadie and their studies. Has the work been published? I was sharing similar imagery to an author about the subtleties of Malay state influenced Sundang in the Borneo and Sulu regions recently, although that seems to have died a natural death... The Malay states of Northern Borneo is a fascinating region and it is quite easy to see influence from Terengganu for me, not so much Kelantan, my eye is not yet trained to pinpoint these aspects. I still struggle with modern keris, only in so far as misinformation and those mimicking other cultural materials. There are thousands of "Malay" types that are modern Java made keris, made in the name of commerce. They are bought in to Malaysia and sold on. The issue I am seeing more and more is many of these are being bought at the point of sale in Malaysia and then aged, mixed a little with other components, sometimes non regionally correct dress and sold to new collectors as old pieces over and over and over again... Attached are a couple other other images. A 3 luk kris that retains a stain in the parts not over polished. The other the sundang I referenced with the twist core gonjo. Gavin Attached Images

9th July 2023, 01:20 AM	#15
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	Alan, I guess, this Sundang could be quite similar to your specimen from Brunei. I understand why certain people would attribute it to a Madura smith. I am quite sure, there were Madura smiths working on Peninsula too. On the other hand, wasn't Jasper&Pirngadie writing about smiths from Terengganu working in malay parts of Borneo? Some kind of geographical loop, which is very acceptable. Sundang from #11 has a quite distinct Luk shape, and this Luk shape points to Terengganu. Kembang Kacang is different from the example I posted here below. Its sheath is (or better say, was, for antique examples) specifically Kelantan, which borders to Terengganu. By the way, that Sundang from #11 is Luk 5, not 7. Attached Images

6th July 2023, 09:50 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Pasar Turi, Surabaya.

7th July 2023, 01:52 AM	#2
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	Well, Malay Sundang can have Pamor exactly like their Moro counterparts, but in diference of them also can have Gonjo with Pamor. There are Malay Sundang which are parts of Perak and Terengganu regalia at least from second half of 19th cent.

7th July 2023, 10:17 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Post #1 shows a keris & dress that was most probably released to the world through Pasar Turi in Surabaya. The keris itself, ie, blade has been made by Madurese craftsmen in either Sumenep area of Madura or in Surabaya & hinterland. Time frame is post 1980. This is not a guess. In Post 11 the keris on the reddish backcloth has the same or similar parentage. Again, not a guess. The keris with 7 luk & twist core presents every indication that it is 19th century Brunei. My opinion in this case is based on a similar keris that I have in my care & that was the state execution keris of Brunei, dating from 1842, and the fact that the only other keris of this type that I have handled also came from Brunei.

10th July 2023, 09:57 PM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Gustav, in respect of geographic location of origin of the keris in post 11. When relative certainty is lacking, we can hypothesise with relative freedom. I can only be relatively certain about a very limited number of things, & I try not to hypothesise about things where I lack sufficient data. My opinion of place of origin of the post #11 keris is based on very limited certainty: the presence of a limited number of indicators that match with a limited number of keris from a known location. However, what I do know with absolute certainty from Jawa is that the overall form of keris and the characteristics of keris detail do change from period to period, geographic location to geographic location, and maker to maker, but these changes occur within defined parameters. I believe it is reasonable to assume that a similar pattern of change can occur in other types of keris. In respect of the number of luk in post #11. My initial professional training was in accountancy, one of the skills I learnt quite early in life was to add 2 + 2 and make 5 --- or 3 --- or in fact any number that might fill the need. It is not such a big jump to turn a 5 into 7.

8th July 2023, 10:44 PM	#14
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Re my post #13 "The keris with 7 luk & twist core presents every indication that it is 19th century Brunei. My opinion in this case is based on a similar keris that I have in my care & that was the state execution keris of Brunei, dating from 1842, and the fact that the only other keris of this type that I have handled also came from Brunei." I have had a chance to get back to my notes, I have in fact seen several of this type of keris, but have only handled two, mine & one other.