I'd like to see cross cultural sundang melayu kerises

[Gavin Nugent]

It is interesting Gustav, the reference you note about Jasper & Pirngadie and their studies. Has the work been published?

I was sharing similar imagery to an author about the subtleties of Malay state influenced Sundang in the Borneo and Sulu regions recently, although that seems to have died a natural death...

The Malay states of Northern Borneo is a fascinating region and it is quite easy to see influence from Terengganu for me, not so much Kelantan, my eye is not yet trained to pinpoint these aspects.

I still struggle with modern keris, only in so far as misinformation and those mimicking other cultural materials.
There are thousands of "Malay" types that are modern Java made keris, made in the name of commerce.
They are bought in to Malaysia and sold on. The issue I am seeing more and more is many of these are being bought at the point of sale in Malaysia and then aged, mixed a little with other components, sometimes non regionally correct dress and sold to new collectors as old pieces over and over and over again...

Attached are a couple other other images.
A 3 luk kris that retains a stain in the parts not over polished.
The other the sundang I referenced with the twist core gonjo.

Gavin

[Gustav]

Alan,

information, even empirically gathered, can save lifes.

You see a certain type Keris, and you know exactly what it is, because you have seen exactly this type of Keris in Pasar or even being worked on in Madura.

I see a Pedongkok on a Buginese Keris, and I can say with the same certainty, this Pedongkok is new, even if it tries to echo an older form.

The things I see in the Sundang from #11 may differ a little bit from things you see in it; the difference is information.

About Luk counting, I understand, that what a person says can differ with the people he is communicating with, the level of communication and so on, but the best perhaps would be to keep a certain amount of respect, the fraction of respect you demand for yourself in situations you repeat saying you are a pupil of an Empu.

There surely are situations were 2+2 must be 3 or 5, but in some other situations such procedure can result in a time in prison.



Gavin,

two publications about Keris, which always will stay actual and indispensable, are the book of Jasper&Mas Pirngadie and the series of articles by Huyser. Both were published in Dutch, and there is no oficial English translation of them I am aware of.

[milandro]

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

...
I still struggle with modern keris, only in so far as misinformation and those mimicking other cultural materials.

There are thousands of "Malay" types that are modern Java made keris, made in the name of commerce.

They are bought in to Malaysia and sold on. The issue I am seeing more and more is many of these are being bought at the point of sale in Malaysia and then aged, mixed a little with other components, sometimes non regionally correct dress and sold to new collectors as old pieces over and over and over again...
....

While I was researching the internet , I found , on YouTube, several videos, apparently all from Malaysia, made by makers (sometimes showing the forging process) of Melayu Sundang.

These are obviously newly made and seemingly made in Malaysia of course there may be others making them in Indonesia too, wherever there is money to be made people will try to make money.

I don't understand the language and so I can't tell what the people or voiceovers say about the krises and not even if they are attempting a sale or just describing some item. I won't therefore give any links. But anyone can look things up on Youtube by searching Melayu Sundang Keris.

There is a duo , for example, whom publishes videos under the channel Tenku Nara Paduka name, showing several blades, all obviously new and possibly for sale?

As far as I can tell from these videos the industry of keris making ( certainly of keris selling) is very alive there!

I don't see anything wrong there as long as they don't try to pass newly made kisses for old ones (which unfortunately also western dealers sometimes do)

I was interested in seeing examples and I tried to ask precisely for this with the title of this thread.


Again, my interest lies specifically with those krises that are not of the Moro type, but those which express a cross-over form between the pamor rich (and visible) Indonesian made kris and the moro kris.

[Sajen]

Sorry Alan,

I also count only 5 luk!

[A. G. Maisey]

I can understand that Detlef, one needs a background in creative accounting to find dollars where there are none, and the same seems to apply to the waves in a keris.

[David]

Originally Posted by milandro

I was interested in seeing examples and I tried to ask precisely for this with the title of this thread.
Again, my interest lies specifically with those krises that are not of the Moro type, but those which express a cross-over form between the pamor rich (and visible) Indonesian made kris and the moro kris.

Thank you Milandro, and that is exactly what i would ask this group stick to in this particular forum. Moro kris are meant to be discussed in the Ethno Forum.