Seeking Help with Excavated 1728 Pattern Bilbo Sword

midelburgo · 2nd March 2023, 08:35 AM

I believe both parts belong together.

Typical 1728s as the ones shown here are rather post 1760.

From the end of XVII century there were a series of experimental designs.
We have to think that boca-de-caballo swords in aspect evolve from the two shells Brescian hilts, and eventually from the Pappenheimer.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=27384

But as a construction, because of the use of screws, they are related to cup hilts. And there are cup hilts with screws but shaped as Brescian hilts.

Initially boca-de-caballo swords had only two screws, but this made the two shells prone to colapse and break at the middle of the line between the two screws.

One of the solutions was to add a second set of screws at the sides with a reinforcement piece (later was welded to the pass de ane). I call these rhomboidal 4 screws hilts.

The blade seems to come from the same Solingen workshop as the "Enrique Coel" blades, just with no lettering.

I would not wonder too much on the Martinique subject. We know cavalry swords were sometimes embarked in the Spanish fleet, and the Royal Armouries at Leeds has a bilbo captured at Trafalgar. Any shipwreck could carry the sword to the island where most probably was used as a machete.

That the square has more room than needed for the ricasso is not new, as the structure is there to hold the shells not the blade.

fernando · 2nd March 2023, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by midelburgo

I believe both parts belong together ...The blade seems to come from the same Solingen workshop as the "Enrique Coel" blades, just with no lettering...

....And as for the atypical decoration; a later work, under onwner's commission ?

midelburgo · 2nd March 2023, 02:13 PM

My experience is that the later the 1728, the more similar blades you find. For example, there are 4 different "Enrique Coel" formats, three of them common. Probably they are batches ordered in different years. In what I think are boca-de-caballos from the later XVII century, you do not find two blades alike, and blades from 50 years earlier or more are not rare.
Sometimes they do not have a real ricasso and it is just a tang. And sometimes there is a brass piece covering it.
At the end of XVIIth century there is fashion for flower scrolls at the sides of the blade channel. I suspect this is an Italian fashion and did not last long. Possibly they did anew on older blades too. In a simile, Victorians engraved often flowers on plain Georgian silverwares, for example.

Jerseyman · 4th March 2023, 08:38 PM

I can't help with the sword as it's outside my area of knowledge, but I do have a couple of thoughts.

The decoration looks to me like a specifically Rococo version of a fleur de lis with a running knot and ribbon, or knotted vegetal motif. We can also see the decoration continuing onto the tang for half an inch, which may be an indication of good quality craftsmanship.

My other thought is in regards to the edge damage. Usually I'm of the opinion that so called 'battle damage' is simply the grandkids destroying antiques in the back garden, but I'm interested in the different angles and depth of penetration on this blade. It speaks to me of close quarters fighting with both head and body attacks. If it is what it appears to be, then it's very interesting to see, because most weapon damage gets cleaned up after the action is over, unless of course the weapon is lost or discarded, as this one may have been.

2nd March 2023, 08:35 AM	#1
midelburgo Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 264	I believe both parts belong together. Typical 1728s as the ones shown here are rather post 1760. From the end of XVII century there were a series of experimental designs. We have to think that boca-de-caballo swords in aspect evolve from the two shells Brescian hilts, and eventually from the Pappenheimer. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=27384 But as a construction, because of the use of screws, they are related to cup hilts. And there are cup hilts with screws but shaped as Brescian hilts. Initially boca-de-caballo swords had only two screws, but this made the two shells prone to colapse and break at the middle of the line between the two screws. One of the solutions was to add a second set of screws at the sides with a reinforcement piece (later was welded to the pass de ane). I call these rhomboidal 4 screws hilts. The blade seems to come from the same Solingen workshop as the "Enrique Coel" blades, just with no lettering. I would not wonder too much on the Martinique subject. We know cavalry swords were sometimes embarked in the Spanish fleet, and the Royal Armouries at Leeds has a bilbo captured at Trafalgar. Any shipwreck could carry the sword to the island where most probably was used as a machete. That the square has more room than needed for the ricasso is not new, as the structure is there to hold the shells not the blade. Attached Images Last edited by midelburgo; 2nd March 2023 at 08:51 AM.

2nd March 2023, 02:13 PM	#3
midelburgo Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 264	My experience is that the later the 1728, the more similar blades you find. For example, there are 4 different "Enrique Coel" formats, three of them common. Probably they are batches ordered in different years. In what I think are boca-de-caballos from the later XVII century, you do not find two blades alike, and blades from 50 years earlier or more are not rare. Sometimes they do not have a real ricasso and it is just a tang. And sometimes there is a brass piece covering it. At the end of XVIIth century there is fashion for flower scrolls at the sides of the blade channel. I suspect this is an Italian fashion and did not last long. Possibly they did anew on older blades too. In a simile, Victorians engraved often flowers on plain Georgian silverwares, for example. Last edited by midelburgo; 2nd March 2023 at 02:23 PM.

4th March 2023, 08:38 PM	#4
Jerseyman Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 97	I can't help with the sword as it's outside my area of knowledge, but I do have a couple of thoughts. The decoration looks to me like a specifically Rococo version of a fleur de lis with a running knot and ribbon, or knotted vegetal motif. We can also see the decoration continuing onto the tang for half an inch, which may be an indication of good quality craftsmanship. My other thought is in regards to the edge damage. Usually I'm of the opinion that so called 'battle damage' is simply the grandkids destroying antiques in the back garden, but I'm interested in the different angles and depth of penetration on this blade. It speaks to me of close quarters fighting with both head and body attacks. If it is what it appears to be, then it's very interesting to see, because most weapon damage gets cleaned up after the action is over, unless of course the weapon is lost or discarded, as this one may have been.