Use of Actual Vintage Arms as Props in Early Films

Jim McDougall · 7th February 2023, 06:55 PM

This is an absolutely outstanding description of exactly the circumstances I was looking for! THANK YOU SO MUCH! Brilliant!

We often wonder how when so many weapons obviously were produced, many hundreds of thousands, yet many are hard to find, some even deemed 'rare'.
The anecdote on that Japanese sword is quintessant, for these 'diamonds in the rough' found in incredibly austere situations.

I think of the case for the well known Bannerman's island with literally tons of hoarded surplus weapons of every kind. A friend who had worked at movie studios spoke of tons of old weapons into land fills...old gun barrels used as rebar in concrete installations.

Those are excellent books, thank you! and I do have the one by Richards. I did take fencing about a zillion years ago

and much of it included 'stage combat' which was quite elaborate compared to actual fencing.

werecow · 9th February 2023, 09:43 PM

I watched Hight Road to China (1983) the other day and was pleasantly surprised to see that the Afghan's were using actual khyber knives. It was a bit hard to screencap so this was the best shot I could get.

I also once bought a Sikin Panjang and a Co Jang in poor state mostly as fixer uppers (I can use a bit of practice). The lady who sold them told me they had been used in a theater production (unfortunately I never got the name) and that is how they got so banged up. They're sharp, original weapons, and the sikin panjang in particular looks to have been smashed into stuff hard and a lot (it's buckling and bent in multiple places and there is a crack in the blade and some delaminations, and the grip has split), so those actors were dedicated!

Still haven't gotten around to cleaning them and fixing that split grip. If anyone has advice on the repairs (e.g. how to stabilize that blister or what glue works well on horn grips) I am always grateful for your input.

Rick · 11th February 2023, 04:06 AM

Splits in the handles of older Sikkins seem almost ubiquitous.

Jim McDougall · 11th February 2023, 06:07 AM

Werecow that is great! "High Road to China" was another favorite movie!
Good catch noticing those Khyber knives. That movie was based on a novel by the same name, by Australian writer Jon Cleary. It is not noted , but it seems clear that the basis for the book was the adventurer Richard Halliburton, who flew in a round the globe expedition in a Stearman biplane. In Persia, he met a German aviatrix and they combined itineraries. The concept of an aviation adventure to exotic places with a pair of biplanes as the case with these flyers seems to be the same setting.
In the movie, the costuming seemed well researched.

In his book, "Seven League Boots" which I read before seeing the movie he visited Georgia in the Caucusus, where he met the Khevsur people.
The pictures in the book were the first I had ever heard of these people, and years later got one of these swords.

The photo is of Halliburton wearing the mail these people were still wearing in the 1930s.

Interesting note on the Sikkin swords, and that they were used theatrically, indeed does sound like dedicated actors.

kronckew · 11th February 2023, 07:45 AM

Jim, there are a number of posts on the forum about the Khevsurli.

My favourite story there is that in WW1 They got finally the word that the Tsar was recruiting men for the war with Germany & Austria-Hungary, so they gathered in their hundreds, Mounted, chain mail on all, shields, lances, swords, etc. and marched to battle.

Only to find the pass out was snowed in and impassible from a set of particularly hard winters. By the time it cleared, the war was over.

Jim McDougall · 11th February 2023, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

Jim, there are a number of posts on the forum about the Khevsurli.

My favourite story there is that in WW1 They got finally the word that the Tsar was recruiting men for the war with Germany & Austria-Hungary, so they gathered in their hundreds, Mounted, chain mail on all, shields, lances, swords, etc. and marched to battle.

Only to find the pass out was snowed in and impassible from a set of particularly hard winters. By the time it cleared, the war was over.

Thanks Wayne, that anecdote was recounted by Halliburton in "Seven League Boots". The thing was that these Khevsur warriors were still wearing mail and dueling with these swords when Halliburton was there. When I found the Khevsur sword I got, the guy thought it was Zaporozhian cossack...I only knew what is was because of the pictures in the book.

Getting back to the main topic,it seems there were numbers of weapons and armor made for plays and such performances before the silver screen days. I am wondering if anyone has seen any specific literature on this apparently very esoteric subject. Jerseyman, do you know of references?
The books you noted on the actors as swordsmen, but nothing on the weapons they used.

kronckew · 11th February 2023, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

.... I am wondering if anyone has seen any specific literature on this apparently very esoteric subject. Jerseyman, do you know of references?
The books you noted on the actors as swordsmen, but nothing on the weapons they used.

I have just acquired a 'Celtic/La Tene' sword, with an anthropomorphic hilt in cast bronze, nicely stamped 'Verch & Flothow', Charlottenburg' They made weapons for stage combat for the Charlottenburg Palace Theatre in Berlin late 19c/early 20c. They made swords for plays and operas covering all periods.

I can't find much by googling that, but I did find one of their rapiers that went for a multi-thousand Euro price recently.

I've been told they were made with German meticulousness, with the same methods an original antique one would have been.

You might be able to use that and branch out your research.

werecow · 11th February 2023, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Splits in the handles of older Sikkins seem almost ubiquitous.

Yeah... The mouth on the pommel end seems almost made to facilitate it.

kronckew · 11th February 2023, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by werecow

Yeah... The mouth on the pommel end seems almost made to facilitate it.

I use 'Hooflex' on my horn grips.

werecow · 11th February 2023, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

:) I use 'Hooflex' on my horn grips.

I've used neatsfoot oil on a dried out yataghan grip before, so that makes sense.

9th February 2023, 09:43 PM	#2
werecow Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: Leiden, NL Posts: 553	I watched Hight Road to China (1983) the other day and was pleasantly surprised to see that the Afghan's were using actual khyber knives. It was a bit hard to screencap so this was the best shot I could get. I also once bought a Sikin Panjang and a Co Jang in poor state mostly as fixer uppers (I can use a bit of practice). The lady who sold them told me they had been used in a theater production (unfortunately I never got the name) and that is how they got so banged up. They're sharp, original weapons, and the sikin panjang in particular looks to have been smashed into stuff hard and a lot (it's buckling and bent in multiple places and there is a crack in the blade and some delaminations, and the grip has split), so those actors were dedicated! Still haven't gotten around to cleaning them and fixing that split grip. If anyone has advice on the repairs (e.g. how to stabilize that blister or what glue works well on horn grips) I am always grateful for your input. Attached Images

11th February 2023, 06:07 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,195	Werecow that is great! "High Road to China" was another favorite movie! Good catch noticing those Khyber knives. That movie was based on a novel by the same name, by Australian writer Jon Cleary. It is not noted , but it seems clear that the basis for the book was the adventurer Richard Halliburton, who flew in a round the globe expedition in a Stearman biplane. In Persia, he met a German aviatrix and they combined itineraries. The concept of an aviation adventure to exotic places with a pair of biplanes as the case with these flyers seems to be the same setting. In the movie, the costuming seemed well researched. In his book, "Seven League Boots" which I read before seeing the movie he visited Georgia in the Caucusus, where he met the Khevsur people. The pictures in the book were the first I had ever heard of these people, and years later got one of these swords. The photo is of Halliburton wearing the mail these people were still wearing in the 1930s. Interesting note on the Sikkin swords, and that they were used theatrically, indeed does sound like dedicated actors. Attached Images

11th February 2023, 07:45 AM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,216	Jim, there are a number of posts on the forum about the Khevsurli. My favourite story there is that in WW1 They got finally the word that the Tsar was recruiting men for the war with Germany & Austria-Hungary, so they gathered in their hundreds, Mounted, chain mail on all, shields, lances, swords, etc. and marched to battle. Only to find the pass out was snowed in and impassible from a set of particularly hard winters. By the time it cleared, the war was over. Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 11th February 2023 at 08:43 AM.

7th February 2023, 06:55 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,195	This is an absolutely outstanding description of exactly the circumstances I was looking for! THANK YOU SO MUCH! Brilliant! We often wonder how when so many weapons obviously were produced, many hundreds of thousands, yet many are hard to find, some even deemed 'rare'. The anecdote on that Japanese sword is quintessant, for these 'diamonds in the rough' found in incredibly austere situations. I think of the case for the well known Bannerman's island with literally tons of hoarded surplus weapons of every kind. A friend who had worked at movie studios spoke of tons of old weapons into land fills...old gun barrels used as rebar in concrete installations. Those are excellent books, thank you! and I do have the one by Richards. I did take fencing about a zillion years ago and much of it included 'stage combat' which was quite elaborate compared to actual fencing.

11th February 2023, 04:06 AM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Splits in the handles of older Sikkins seem almost ubiquitous.