Wallachian Swords of the 15th Century: What Types?

Teisani · 21st January 2023, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reventlov

...In this case the caption Mosquwiter would mean "Muscovites"?! The other groups of horsemen are there too... the "Arabs" have become "Tatars".

Nice catch! I missed the Tatar picture. I have on more example that shows how unreliable these old prints can be. More on that later.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reventlov

Searching in connection with this new version I found that according to at least one 16th century Wappenbuch, the coat of arms seen in some of the versions was attributed to Osman I. I am quite sure that this should not be taken literally, but instead symbolizes the transfer of authority from the Byzantines to the ...

That's a really nice find! And I agree with your conclusion.

Teisani · 21st January 2023, 09:36 AM

Here's another example how depictions get reused over time.

1 Báthory Zsigmond and George I Rákóczi.

https://ro.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiși...gmond_1596.jpg

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...II_Rakoczy.jpg

2 Michael the Brave and Gheorghe Ștefan

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...i_Viteazul.jpg

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...and_02_311.jpg

========================

Also, another example of that wool hat that Wallachians are depicted with. Portrait of Michael the Brave. https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...i_Viteazul.jpg

Teisani · 21st January 2023, 07:06 PM

Here's another example of the same depiction used for two different people, Bathory Istvan and False Dmitry I.

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...33_-_1586).jpg

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...ump-to-license

Teisani · 24th January 2023, 07:50 PM

This just gets weirder and weirder.

1 - two Michael the Brave portraits combined to give on Andrei Movilă/Andrzej Mohyła.
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...i_Viteazul.jpg

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...aiViteazul.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...rij_Mohyla.jpg

2 - how about this portrait of Bethlen Gabor (see attached picture), which is actually another portrait of Michael the Brave. Although this likely is a more modern mistaken identity.
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki..._Viteazul).png

Teisani · 24th January 2023, 08:26 PM

Last examples:

1 - Gabor Bethlen with and without hat.
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...d_01_439_2.jpg
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...d_01_437_2.jpg

2 - Bocskai István with and without sabre.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ay-istvan1.jpg
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...re_bocskai.jpg

After seeing all of this, I now have a healthy dose of scepticism when looking at these old depictions.

ariel · 26th January 2023, 05:52 AM

Perhaps, the most informative source of old Hungarian swords is the so-called Kepes Kronica, " The illustrates chronic", a book written in ~1370 on the order of a Hungarian King Louis ( Lajos) I. It shows a variety of Hungarian armamentarium at that time: a co-existence of both European and Oriental swords.

The very first illustration shows the king sitting on the throne and surrounded by the local aristocracy. On his right side ( our left) are definitely European knights wearing typical European armour and carrying straight swords. Those are the European warriors serving him and coming from different Christian principalities including France: Louis I belonged to Angevine dynasty.

But on his left ( our right) are several swarthy, bearded and mustachioed individuals wearing long Oriental robes and carrying curved sabers. Those are the Cumans ( Quipchaks) who came to Hungary after 1237, escaping the onslaught of the Batu Khan’s Golden Horde on Eastern and Central Europe.

ariel · 26th January 2023, 06:21 AM

The army of Batu Khan reached the Adriatic Coast of the Balkans and their swords entered the local armamentariums.
Here are two frescoes from Serbian monasteries built in 1346 and 1347: St. Nikita in Gracanica monastery and St Mikhael in St. Demetrius monastery. Both are armed with typical nomadic sabers.

Teisani · 19th February 2023, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Perhaps, the most informative source of old Hungarian swords is the so-called Kepes Kronica...

Sabres
Yes, the Chronicon Pictum or Képes Krónika is an important source for East/Central European history. As you mentioned, in it, are depicted steppe people elements (Cumans) in this part of Europe. Interestingly the pommels have peen-blocks.

Here are the pages with sabres depicted.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chroni...trónon_(2).jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:K...B3maiakkal.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:A...C3%B3nika).jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:K...,_%C3%96rs.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bela_menekul.jpg

The sabres depicted match this type in my opinion http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...1&postcount=10. Except the one shown in the second link, which is a typical steppe sabre.
Although this discussion would be more relevant in this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=28312

==========================

Vlachs
Chronicon Pictum is also important for those interested for those in the history of Wallachia as the establishment is closelly linked to the battle of Posada in 1330.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:C...dai_csata1.JPG
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:K...9t_fogadja.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:V...cle_Posada.jpg

24th January 2023, 07:50 PM	#4
Teisani Member Join Date: Oct 2022 Location: Romania Posts: 314	This just gets weirder and weirder. 1 - two Michael the Brave portraits combined to give on Andrei Movilă/Andrzej Mohyła. https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...i_Viteazul.jpg https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...aiViteazul.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...rij_Mohyla.jpg 2 - how about this portrait of Bethlen Gabor (see attached picture), which is actually another portrait of Michael the Brave. Although this likely is a more modern mistaken identity. https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki..._Viteazul).png Attached Images Last edited by Teisani; 24th January 2023 at 08:03 PM.

26th January 2023, 05:52 AM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Perhaps, the most informative source of old Hungarian swords is the so-called Kepes Kronica, " The illustrates chronic", a book written in ~1370 on the order of a Hungarian King Louis ( Lajos) I. It shows a variety of Hungarian armamentarium at that time: a co-existence of both European and Oriental swords. The very first illustration shows the king sitting on the throne and surrounded by the local aristocracy. On his right side ( our left) are definitely European knights wearing typical European armour and carrying straight swords. Those are the European warriors serving him and coming from different Christian principalities including France: Louis I belonged to Angevine dynasty. But on his left ( our right) are several swarthy, bearded and mustachioed individuals wearing long Oriental robes and carrying curved sabers. Those are the Cumans ( Quipchaks) who came to Hungary after 1237, escaping the onslaught of the Batu Khan’s Golden Horde on Eastern and Central Europe. Attached Images Last edited by ariel; 27th January 2023 at 03:27 AM.

26th January 2023, 06:21 AM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The army of Batu Khan reached the Adriatic Coast of the Balkans and their swords entered the local armamentariums. Here are two frescoes from Serbian monasteries built in 1346 and 1347: St. Nikita in Gracanica monastery and St Mikhael in St. Demetrius monastery. Both are armed with typical nomadic sabers. Attached Images

21st January 2023, 09:36 AM	#2
Teisani Member Join Date: Oct 2022 Location: Romania Posts: 314	Here's another example how depictions get reused over time. 1 Báthory Zsigmond and George I Rákóczi. https://ro.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiși...gmond_1596.jpg https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...II_Rakoczy.jpg 2 Michael the Brave and Gheorghe Ștefan https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...i_Viteazul.jpg https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...and_02_311.jpg ======================== Also, another example of that wool hat that Wallachians are depicted with. Portrait of Michael the Brave. https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...i_Viteazul.jpg

21st January 2023, 07:06 PM	#3
Teisani Member Join Date: Oct 2022 Location: Romania Posts: 314	Here's another example of the same depiction used for two different people, Bathory Istvan and False Dmitry I. https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...33_-_1586).jpg https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...ump-to-license

24th January 2023, 08:26 PM	#5
Teisani Member Join Date: Oct 2022 Location: Romania Posts: 314	Last examples: 1 - Gabor Bethlen with and without hat. https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...d_01_439_2.jpg https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...d_01_437_2.jpg 2 - Bocskai István with and without sabre. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ay-istvan1.jpg https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...re_bocskai.jpg After seeing all of this, I now have a healthy dose of scepticism when looking at these old depictions.