Keris identification

[David]

Originally Posted by rasdan

I think people in the past do not really care too much if their keris reflects their birthplace/nationality; they just want quality keris /parts for their keris. The practice of having a geographical identity for keris probably develops in later times where the beliefs surrounding a keris has evolved and spread to different areas, and people tend to have more “tribal pride” (rather than just a sense for quality) and/or when royal houses started to have standardised dress codes for their courts.

I don't know how true that is Rasdan. My point about how modern keris are becoming more generic with time i don't think really applies to the past. Keris styles, especially of dress, which is the outward appearance of the keris that was presented to society, i believe were rather formalized, at least when we are discussing keris on a court level. As for people within that specific culture on the village level, those folks probably didn't have a level of income that would permit them to seek high end craftspeople in different parts of the archipelago to create their keris parts. When we see elements in village keris that don't quite meet the standards set by the keraton or puri it is not due to workmanship done outside if the culture, but rather the common folks doing the best they can to emulate what the higher classes are doing.
When i look at this keris, yes, it presents itself as a Bali keris, but for many it is really easy to see that certain aspects of it just don't seem quite right for a true Balinese keris. I think that is fine for a modern "art" keris like this, however, for the social functioning of a keris as element of formal dress in cultural situations i am not so sure this was something that would have been embraced by members a specific keris culture back in the day.

[A. G. Maisey]

What I have seen, both in old & recent pieces is that where an area is under direct influence of a ruling class, possibly located in a kraton or other center of power, everybody in that area will follow the styles used by the elites. I do mean everybody where Jawa is concerned.

The further away from that power center people live, the weaker the influence of elite style. When we move into distant & isolated settlements the various components of a complete keris become very mixed.

[rasdan]

I agree with Alan and David. I just observe sometime probably between the 1700s to 1800s there is a practice where gold kerises uses very similar style of sheath regardless of the “nationality” of the owner. Composite, but not a work a dealer. Photos below.

Lots of possibility, however. Probably that is the generic type of sheath of the time since western Java keris also uses the similar type of sheath.

Even hilts styles, hilt cups cross borders. Javanese blades or Javanese style blades seems to be a favourite. One thing that shows is that they go quality and the go for the bling.

[kai]

Hello Rasdan,

I just observe sometime probably between the 1700s to 1800s there is a practice where gold kerises uses very similar style of sheath regardless of the “nationality” of the owner. Composite, but not a work a dealer. Photos below.

Lots of possibility, however. Probably that is the generic type of sheath of the time since western Java keris also uses the similar type of sheath.

I'd quibble with some details (i.e. some of the shown scabbards clearly exhibit local styles). However, the same root/origin is certainly quite visible with these examples.

Even hilts styles, hilt cups cross borders.

This seems more of a thing with the Malay coastal cultures with local ports receiving lots of trade as well as (cross-)cultural influence from constantly migrating populations (including longer-distance expats like Bugis, Peranakan, etc.).

Javanese blades or Javanese style blades seems to be a favourite.

This also needs very close study: Some of these blades appear to be locally forged: While their overall appearance may seem Javanese on first sight, a real blade would need to be attributable to a specific culture and period. Mind you, gifts were also bestowed between the more important rulers and blades from Tanah Jawa (or Sunda) certainly show up in heirloom collections of local regents (as well as huge amounts of trade blades filtering through the archipelago).

One thing that shows is that they go quality and the go for the bling.

The rulers were free to go for exotic/foreign toys.

However, keep in mind that - with some local nuances - blending in with the own community was the central goal of any mere mortals. While there certainly was some place and even the clear expectation to exhibit your status, sticking out or even over-representing your social standing was generally shunned and pretty much considered heresy! Apparently, there was a bit more leeway in the trading ports, especially when their economical importance started to challenge existing overlordships.

Regards,
Kai

[rasdan]

Hi Kai,

The reason I made the above statement is because in current times sometimes people can be too obsessed with origin of things and too often does not even look at more important things such as quality. In the past, it seems to me that even royals does not seem to mind too much about local styling. They seemingly were more concerned about quality. And quality, in some sense and to some extent, can be quite objective. Yes, we can certainly argue more, but I am just stating a simple observation, not trying to prove anything academically.

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Rasdan,


I'd quibble with some details (i.e. some of the shown scabbards clearly exhibit local styles). However, the same root/origin is certainly quite visible with these examples.

Yes, I agree. The keris started as one thing in one location and later the belief, style etc. spread and evolved. The sheath style in question probably started its life in West Java (or anywhere else; it does not matter) and people in the archipelago seems to absorb the style - no problemo. If the people at that time really cared about their own tribal identity, like what is happening in our current time, I don't think the styles will spread out much. With that attitude, there is no way a Bugis king would wear a Cirebon style sheath. But that didn't happen.

Originally Posted by kai

This seems more of a thing with the Malay coastal cultures with local ports receiving lots of trade as well as (cross-)cultural influence from constantly migrating populations (including longer-distance expats like Bugis, Peranakan, etc.).

Yes. (see below)

Originally Posted by kai

This also needs very close study: Some of these blades appear to be locally forged: While their overall appearance may seem Javanese on first sight, a real blade would need to be attributable to a specific culture and period. Mind you, gifts were also bestowed between the more important rulers and blades from Tanah Jawa (or Sunda) certainly show up in heirloom collections of local regents (as well as huge amounts of trade blades filtering through the archipelago).

The keris started its life in Java and Java has been the forefront of keris knowhow and development. Thus Java was on the "giving end" and other places was on the "receiving end". Even if the blade was made locally in Sumatra for example, the technology and styling is very much likely from Java. Even in the 19th century, Palembang keris to a certain extent were made to Javanese specifications. I don't think there is any way that we can say the the blades above are not at least Javanese style. But the non-Javanese royals at that time does not seem to mind. They don't go for a fat penghulu blade.

Nowadays Madura is at the forefront. I will not be surprised if in the future, newer keris styles (for keris cultures that are still evolving) will be decided in Madura.

Originally Posted by kai

The rulers were free to go for exotic/foreign toys.

However, keep in mind that - with some local nuances - blending in with the own community was the central goal of any mere mortals. While there certainly was some place and even the clear expectation to exhibit your status, sticking out or even over-representing your social standing was generally shunned and pretty much considered heresy! Apparently, there was a bit more leeway in the trading ports, especially when their economical importance started to challenge existing overlordships.

Regards,
Kai

Yes, for normal people they need to blend in. But keris is first and foremost a royal culture. They are the ones that matter most when keris are concerned IMHO. All the localized styling I think are very new. And it evolved in the fringes of society. Not at the centre where it matters the most.

[A. G. Maisey]

Clear & very perceptive Rasdan.

It is always the window through which we observe, we cannot observe earlier times by looking through a current window.

[rasdan]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Clear & very perceptive Rasdan.

It is always the window through which we observe, we cannot observe earlier times by looking through a current window.

Thank you Alan. I agree with you totally.