Keris identification

rasdan · 23rd December 2022, 03:45 AM

What I know is that the components can be sourced throughout out Indonesia. Except the blade. Blade is very most likely Madura. Common sources IMHO:

Blade - Madura
Sheath - Can be anywhere, but probably Lombok. Timoho from Lombok is spread everywhere in Java. Many Jogja craftsmen have them.
Pendok/silverworks - probably Lombok or Jogja
Sunggingan - Maybe Bali, Solo, Jakarta

There are thousands of craftsmen throughout Indonesia. From the lowest quality to the best. The best usually work only for a few paymasters. Even dealers do not know all craftsmen. Even in Solo some craftsmen are unknown to some dealers. But I could be wrong though.

Rick · 23rd December 2022, 04:34 AM

I agree with the take Ras has on this piece.

So many possible sources for the different parts of this keris ensemble. One element from here, one element from there.
It's all new work.

And..?

Anthony G. · 23rd December 2022, 04:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rasdan

What I know is that the components can be sourced throughout out Indonesia. Except the blade. Blade is very most likely Madura. Common sources IMHO:

Blade - Madura
Sheath - Can be anywhere, but probably Lombok. Timoho from Lombok is spread everywhere in Java. Many Jogja craftsmen have them.
Pendok/silverworks - probably Lombok or Jogja
Sunggingan - Maybe Bali, Solo, Jakarta

There are thousands of craftsmen throughout Indonesia. From the lowest quality to the best. The best usually work only for a few paymasters. Even dealers do not know all craftsmen. Even in Solo some craftsmen are unknown to some dealers. But I could be wrong though.

You are right in many aspects in your reply. Let wait for more members to guess before I give out the final answers.

jagabuwana · 23rd December 2022, 11:50 AM

Blade is Madura. I think I know which pande made it.
No idea on the others.

David · 23rd December 2022, 07:17 PM

I agree that these days the origin of the parts of such a keris can be gathered from numerous sources. I could guess and say, yeah, the blade is probably from Madura, the sunggungan looks Javanese to me, etc., but the problem here is that for newly made keris, as we move more and more forward in time, the separations of cultures seems to become more and ore generic. Certainly this keris is intended to represent Balinese form and aesthetic, the the crafts people who make all these parts are no longer restricted to their own corner off the archipelago. What you have here is a nice modern art keris that could have been assembled from parts created in a number of different places.

Anthony G. · 24th December 2022, 01:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I agree that these days the origin of the parts of such a keris can be gathered from numerous sources. I could guess and say, yeah, the blade is probably from Madura, the sunggungan looks Javanese to me, etc., but the problem here is that for newly made keris, as we move more and more forward in time, the separations of cultures seems to become more and ore generic. Certainly this keris is intended to represent Balinese form and aesthetic, the the crafts people who make all these parts are no longer restricted to their own corner off the archipelago. What you have here is a nice modern art keris that could have been assembled from parts created in a number of different places.

I love your answer

Anthony G. · 24th December 2022, 01:27 AM

My answer is as below:

1: Bilah source: Forge in Madura by a reputable smith.

2: Warangka and Hulu source: In Lombok.

3: Painting source: In Java.

4: Pendok source: In Lombok.

The reason for doing so as those best craftsmen are located around Indonesia and therefore it is sent to individuals to make the keris.

**Therefore I am not surprise that some antique keris might be 'made' and or adjust as time goes by in this manner as well.
Even in the past, craftsmen travel around.

rasdan · 24th December 2022, 10:44 AM

I think the practice of sourcing the parts for a keris is completely normal even in the past. The reason that old keris usually have a locally sourced parts is probably due to cost restrictions. For higher level keris, people that can afford it will look for quality thus we can see an ensemble of high-quality parts and blade probably made in different locations put together for a royal keris.

I think people in the past do not really care too much if their keris reflects their birthplace/nationality; they just want quality keris /parts for their keris. The practice of having a geographical identity for keris probably develops in later times where the beliefs surrounding a keris has evolved and spread to different areas, and people tend to have more “tribal pride” (rather than just a sense for quality) and/or when royal houses started to have standardised dress codes for their courts.

It is like the present-day pride of owning a German car. (If I can use this analogy) A lot of people appreciate and are proud of owning a German car because of its quality and legacy regardless of where the owner originates. I think probably nobody (or not many) in Yugoslavia will insists on only driving an all-original Yugo when they can afford a better car just because the Yugo originates in their country.

23rd December 2022, 03:45 AM	#1
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	What I know is that the components can be sourced throughout out Indonesia. Except the blade. Blade is very most likely Madura. Common sources IMHO: Blade - Madura Sheath - Can be anywhere, but probably Lombok. Timoho from Lombok is spread everywhere in Java. Many Jogja craftsmen have them. Pendok/silverworks - probably Lombok or Jogja Sunggingan - Maybe Bali, Solo, Jakarta There are thousands of craftsmen throughout Indonesia. From the lowest quality to the best. The best usually work only for a few paymasters. Even dealers do not know all craftsmen. Even in Solo some craftsmen are unknown to some dealers. But I could be wrong though. Last edited by rasdan; 23rd December 2022 at 03:58 AM.

24th December 2022, 01:27 AM	#7
Anthony G. Member Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 470	My answer is as below: 1: Bilah source: Forge in Madura by a reputable smith. 2: Warangka and Hulu source: In Lombok. 3: Painting source: In Java. 4: Pendok source: In Lombok. The reason for doing so as those best craftsmen are located around Indonesia and therefore it is sent to individuals to make the keris. *Therefore I am not surprise that some antique keris might be 'made' and or adjust as time goes by in this manner as well. Even in the past, craftsmen travel around. Last edited by Anthony G.; 24th December 2022 at 01:50 AM.*

23rd December 2022, 04:34 AM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	I agree with the take Ras has on this piece. So many possible sources for the different parts of this keris ensemble. One element from here, one element from there. It's all new work. And..?

23rd December 2022, 11:50 AM	#4
jagabuwana Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 290	Blade is Madura. I think I know which pande made it. No idea on the others.

23rd December 2022, 07:17 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	I agree that these days the origin of the parts of such a keris can be gathered from numerous sources. I could guess and say, yeah, the blade is probably from Madura, the sunggungan looks Javanese to me, etc., but the problem here is that for newly made keris, as we move more and more forward in time, the separations of cultures seems to become more and ore generic. Certainly this keris is intended to represent Balinese form and aesthetic, the the crafts people who make all these parts are no longer restricted to their own corner off the archipelago. What you have here is a nice modern art keris that could have been assembled from parts created in a number of different places.

24th December 2022, 10:44 AM	#8
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	I think the practice of sourcing the parts for a keris is completely normal even in the past. The reason that old keris usually have a locally sourced parts is probably due to cost restrictions. For higher level keris, people that can afford it will look for quality thus we can see an ensemble of high-quality parts and blade probably made in different locations put together for a royal keris. I think people in the past do not really care too much if their keris reflects their birthplace/nationality; they just want quality keris /parts for their keris. The practice of having a geographical identity for keris probably develops in later times where the beliefs surrounding a keris has evolved and spread to different areas, and people tend to have more “tribal pride” (rather than just a sense for quality) and/or when royal houses started to have standardised dress codes for their courts. It is like the present-day pride of owning a German car. (If I can use this analogy) A lot of people appreciate and are proud of owning a German car because of its quality and legacy regardless of where the owner originates. I think probably nobody (or not many) in Yugoslavia will insists on only driving an all-original Yugo when they can afford a better car just because the Yugo originates in their country.