The m1804 British naval cutlass

adrian · 10th November 2022, 07:34 PM

The cutlass can be dated to between 1823 and 1830 as Enfield did not make swords before 1823 and William came to the throne in 1830.

Unfortunately the 'end date' of 1830 cannot be ascribed and should be extended to c1840 given the evidence of other blades of later date with the same stamps. Take for example the early Brunswick Rifle swords that are also stamped ENFIELD and have that same crown/GR stamp - those date to the early reign of Queen Victoria.... an example from my collection below. I have yet to come across a convincing reason for this other than that they had yet to replace the GR stamp that was used for such blades; Blackmore cites evidence that the 1800 dated storekeeper's stamp, applied to the stock (butt) of small arms, was still being used in 1824, so it would not be an isolated case of an 'old' stamp continuing in use.

adrian · 10th November 2022, 08:02 PM

Also a photo of an unusual Sappers & Miners style sword socket bayonet with the same stamp. Two examples of the longarm with this bayonet are known and have been varying identified as P/1836 Sea Service Muskets or as early prototype Sappers and Miner Pattern 1841 Carbine - new research however shows such ascriptions as incorrect, they are 'Presentation' carbine & its bayonet, made at Enfield in about 1838-40.

CutlassCollector · 10th November 2022, 08:07 PM

Thanks Adrian. Just when you think there is something definite!

Interesting that the GR was still being used right through William's reign and into Victoria's.
I know carving out the mirror image cypher onto a steel punch to form the stamp must have required a large amount of skill. There is a Victoria cypher which has been made by removing part of the W from a William cypher. I'll look out the pictures.
Tends to support the theory that it took awhile for new stamps to get made.

adrian · 10th November 2022, 09:14 PM

Thanks Adrian. Just when you think there is something definite!

I study the longarms more so than the blades and I do agree that, frustratingly, there almost always seems to be an exception to any 'rule'.

Interesting that the GR was still being used right through William's reign and into Victoria's.

William did have his own cypher placed on locks set-up to arms within his reign. However most barrels used in his reign were 'old' from Store & therefore have their original GR proof stamps. The only proof stamp that can confidently be ascribed to William is the 'crown/TP/arrow' stamp (sometimes in different config) and that can be found on the few 'new made' barrels from his reign, such as on the Manton P/1833 Cavalry Carbine. His reign was a 'quiet' time for arms manufacture as the old war store was still being 'run down' and experimentation was being conducted on the percussion system.

I know carving out the mirror image cypher onto a steel punch to form the stamp must have required a large amount of skill.
The stamps appear to have generally been ordered from makers, there are records of purchase but it does seems to have been rather frugal in the way we see old stamps being used much later.

There is a Victoria cypher which has been made by removing part of the W from a William cypher. I'll look out the pictures. Tends to support the theory that it took a while for new stamps to get made.

I would be most interested to see that - a separate thread perhaps. I doubt it would be a lock plate cypher, due to the engraving method of application at that time. I suspect therefore that you mean the Crown/MR proof stamp which is most often misinterpreted as Crown IVR and ascribed to William IV (Blackmore has that misinterpretation) or as VR and ascribed to Victoria, as it is often mis-struck but is different to her much later VR proof stamp. The Crown/MR stamp actually dates to no later than 1816. (ref Bailey, The Armoury Mills Kent, JAAS Vol 21 No.6)

M ELEY · 11th November 2022, 12:56 AM

Thank you, CC and Adrian, for your input. I, too, am flummoxed by the quite late usage of the block GR stamping! Is there any significance, though, to the fact that the early block letters found on blades were in-line to the hilt whereas these are perpendicular?

CC, That is an amazing and beautiful example of a Coastguard cutlass! You mentioned William stamps and I was wondering if you could have a look at the sheet metal cutlass I posted earlier(#6), which classically resembles a merchant type of the first quarter of the 19th, has a very weak crown stamp with either a WR or VR. I had assumed it was a later stamping, as it is weak and the style of sword from earlier. But with all of this new information on WR markings made into VR stamps and GR stamps still around in the mid-19th, the puzzle continues!

And do I dare say I've seen British 1845 cutlass marked simply with RN (Royal Navy? Yet, no crown or Victoria, or??? My head is about to explode!

)

adrian · 11th November 2022, 01:33 AM

You mentioned William stamps and I was wondering if you could have a look at the sheet metal cutlass I posted earlier(#6), which classically resembles a merchant type of the first quarter of the 19th, has a very weak crown stamp with either a WR or VR.

As you suspect it is a VR stamp, if WR it would be too 'off center'.

M ELEY · 11th November 2022, 03:10 AM

Makes sense. Have you seen the RN stamps on any of the later Brit pattern cutlasses? A while back, there was an online auction with several naval pieces marked as such, but again, no gov't issuance mark?

adrian · 11th November 2022, 06:13 AM

Have you seen the RN stamps on any of the later Brit pattern cutlasses?

Not that I recollect, however my interest in cutlasses does not run to any great depth.

A while back, there was an online auction with several naval pieces marked as such, but again, no gov't issuance mark?

Whilst I am familiar with various items & ordnance intended for sea service often bearing the letter 'N' to distinguish that it is for Naval issue those items were Ordnance supplied and as such they bear Ordnance inspection stamps etc. An item dating from the Georgian to the mid/late Victorian period marked RN would therefore get my attention as being outside of this, and if it bore no Ordnance markings then I would consider it to be highly suspect as far as it being a British sea service item. For anything later, I do not know enough to do other than speculate.

CutlassCollector · 11th November 2022, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adrian

You mentioned William stamps and I was wondering if you could have a look at the sheet metal cutlass I posted earlier(#6), which classically resembles a merchant type of the first quarter of the 19th, has a very weak crown stamp with either a WR or VR.

Hi Mark, I'm thinking VR as well although hard to tell. It looks more like the end of a V and note the 'modified' W above has a horizontal serif at the top.

CutlassCollector · 11th November 2022, 03:20 PM

Reference the VR cutlass. It was the faded cypher I owned and it was very well used and worn. I spotted the other one go through an auction and stole the pictures.
I'm told the crown is correct for the period a James Crown - again my knowledge is limited in that area. It does look similar to the crown on Adrian's two examples and the coastguard with the two crosses at the front of the same period.
But it is very different from the GR crown on Mark's 1804 in post 3.

kronckew · 11th November 2022, 08:13 AM

The British 'Coastguard' cutlass has a ribbed steel grip and a brass guard, the blade suggests it was influenced by the 1796 LC sabre, but shorter. The scabbard was steel, with the centre section japanned black.

The sword was carried on horseback by the Coastal riders of the ;ate 18c & early 19c. They were essentially customs agents looking for smugglers. Much like the USCG, which started as the 'Revenue Cutter Service'. The Present UK Coastguard is not an armed service, unlike the USCG, which is.

the British Coast riders were recommended for disbandment in in 1783, but became the UK Coastguard, formed in 1822 from a merger of the Revenue Cruisers, the Riding Officers and the Preventative Water Guard. There were at their peak only 291 riding officers to guard the whole UK.

When they were later disbanded & disarmed, many of the swords were reissued later to the hospital corps in the later years of the 19c.

Mine:

CutlassCollector · 11th November 2022, 02:46 PM

My main reason to post the Coastguard cutlass was to support Mark's view on the block GR by British manufacturers. I have to admit though that my knowledge of cyphers and crowns is limited. It would be a good thread on its own as Adrian suggests.

In the meantime this neatly brings us back to Mark's 1804 thread. There are at least two 1804's with a VR cypher. I owned one of them in the past and can vouch that it is a genuine 1804 cutlass and not a replica. It has been discussed before and opinions vary as to why an 1804 would have a VR stamp when no new cutlasses had been made for many years. Some think that the cypher is fake, but it looks OK to me - any thoughts?

My own theory for the contradiction follows. A large number of existing 1804 cutlasses had been sent to the tower for modification, which included a new hilt, when a serious fire at the Tower in 1841 destroyed large numbers of these. In order to make up the the serious shortage these were re-issued with a VR stamp in the 1840s. There is no proof of course and unless there was a stock of unmarked spares it does not explain why there are no signs of a GR or other markings.

The cypher seems to have been made by altering the W to a V. Perhaps because a new cypher was not yet made for the new monarch.

10th November 2022, 07:34 PM	#1
adrian Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 132	The cutlass can be dated to between 1823 and 1830 as Enfield did not make swords before 1823 and William came to the throne in 1830. Unfortunately the 'end date' of 1830 cannot be ascribed and should be extended to c1840 given the evidence of other blades of later date with the same stamps. Take for example the early Brunswick Rifle swords that are also stamped ENFIELD and have that same crown/GR stamp - those date to the early reign of Queen Victoria.... an example from my collection below. I have yet to come across a convincing reason for this other than that they had yet to replace the GR stamp that was used for such blades; Blackmore cites evidence that the 1800 dated storekeeper's stamp, applied to the stock (butt) of small arms, was still being used in 1824, so it would not be an isolated case of an 'old' stamp continuing in use. Attached Images Last edited by adrian; 11th November 2022 at 06:14 AM.

10th November 2022, 08:02 PM	#2
adrian Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 132	Also a photo of an unusual Sappers & Miners style sword socket bayonet with the same stamp. Two examples of the longarm with this bayonet are known and have been varying identified as P/1836 Sea Service Muskets or as early prototype Sappers and Miner Pattern 1841 Carbine - new research however shows such ascriptions as incorrect, they are 'Presentation' carbine & its bayonet, made at Enfield in about 1838-40. Attached Images Last edited by adrian; 10th November 2022 at 08:59 PM.

11th November 2022, 12:56 AM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,163	Thank you, CC and Adrian, for your input. I, too, am flummoxed by the quite late usage of the block GR stamping! Is there any significance, though, to the fact that the early block letters found on blades were in-line to the hilt whereas these are perpendicular? CC, That is an amazing and beautiful example of a Coastguard cutlass! You mentioned William stamps and I was wondering if you could have a look at the sheet metal cutlass I posted earlier(#6), which classically resembles a merchant type of the first quarter of the 19th, has a very weak crown stamp with either a WR or VR. I had assumed it was a later stamping, as it is weak and the style of sword from earlier. But with all of this new information on WR markings made into VR stamps and GR stamps still around in the mid-19th, the puzzle continues! And do I dare say I've seen British 1845 cutlass marked simply with RN (Royal Navy? Yet, no crown or Victoria, or??? My head is about to explode!)

11th November 2022, 08:13 AM	#11
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	The British 'Coastguard' cutlass has a ribbed steel grip and a brass guard, the blade suggests it was influenced by the 1796 LC sabre, but shorter. The scabbard was steel, with the centre section japanned black. The sword was carried on horseback by the Coastal riders of the ;ate 18c & early 19c. They were essentially customs agents looking for smugglers. Much like the USCG, which started as the 'Revenue Cutter Service'. The Present UK Coastguard is not an armed service, unlike the USCG, which is. the British Coast riders were recommended for disbandment in in 1783, but became the UK Coastguard, formed in 1822 from a merger of the Revenue Cruisers, the Riding Officers and the Preventative Water Guard. There were at their peak only 291 riding officers to guard the whole UK. When they were later disbanded & disarmed, many of the swords were reissued later to the hospital corps in the later years of the 19c. Mine: Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 11th November 2022 at 11:41 AM.

11th November 2022, 02:46 PM	#12
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 357	My main reason to post the Coastguard cutlass was to support Mark's view on the block GR by British manufacturers. I have to admit though that my knowledge of cyphers and crowns is limited. It would be a good thread on its own as Adrian suggests. In the meantime this neatly brings us back to Mark's 1804 thread. There are at least two 1804's with a VR cypher. I owned one of them in the past and can vouch that it is a genuine 1804 cutlass and not a replica. It has been discussed before and opinions vary as to why an 1804 would have a VR stamp when no new cutlasses had been made for many years. Some think that the cypher is fake, but it looks OK to me - any thoughts? My own theory for the contradiction follows. A large number of existing 1804 cutlasses had been sent to the tower for modification, which included a new hilt, when a serious fire at the Tower in 1841 destroyed large numbers of these. In order to make up the the serious shortage these were re-issued with a VR stamp in the 1840s. There is no proof of course and unless there was a stock of unmarked spares it does not explain why there are no signs of a GR or other markings. The cypher seems to have been made by altering the W to a V. Perhaps because a new cypher was not yet made for the new monarch. Attached Images

10th November 2022, 08:07 PM	#3
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 357	Thanks Adrian. Just when you think there is something definite! Interesting that the GR was still being used right through William's reign and into Victoria's. I know carving out the mirror image cypher onto a steel punch to form the stamp must have required a large amount of skill. There is a Victoria cypher which has been made by removing part of the W from a William cypher. I'll look out the pictures. Tends to support the theory that it took awhile for new stamps to get made.

10th November 2022, 09:14 PM	#4
adrian Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 132	Thanks Adrian. Just when you think there is something definite! I study the longarms more so than the blades and I do agree that, frustratingly, there almost always seems to be an exception to any 'rule'. Interesting that the GR was still being used right through William's reign and into Victoria's. William did have his own cypher placed on locks set-up to arms within his reign. However most barrels used in his reign were 'old' from Store & therefore have their original GR proof stamps. The only proof stamp that can confidently be ascribed to William is the 'crown/TP/arrow' stamp (sometimes in different config) and that can be found on the few 'new made' barrels from his reign, such as on the Manton P/1833 Cavalry Carbine. His reign was a 'quiet' time for arms manufacture as the old war store was still being 'run down' and experimentation was being conducted on the percussion system. I know carving out the mirror image cypher onto a steel punch to form the stamp must have required a large amount of skill. The stamps appear to have generally been ordered from makers, there are records of purchase but it does seems to have been rather frugal in the way we see old stamps being used much later. There is a Victoria cypher which has been made by removing part of the W from a William cypher. I'll look out the pictures. Tends to support the theory that it took a while for new stamps to get made. I would be most interested to see that - a separate thread perhaps. I doubt it would be a lock plate cypher, due to the engraving method of application at that time. I suspect therefore that you mean the Crown/MR proof stamp which is most often misinterpreted as Crown IVR and ascribed to William IV (Blackmore has that misinterpretation) or as VR and ascribed to Victoria, as it is often mis-struck but is different to her much later VR proof stamp. The Crown/MR stamp actually dates to no later than 1816. (ref Bailey, The Armoury Mills Kent, JAAS Vol 21 No.6)

11th November 2022, 01:33 AM	#6
adrian Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 132	You mentioned William stamps and I was wondering if you could have a look at the sheet metal cutlass I posted earlier(#6), which classically resembles a merchant type of the first quarter of the 19th, has a very weak crown stamp with either a WR or VR. As you suspect it is a VR stamp, if WR it would be too 'off center'.

11th November 2022, 03:10 AM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,163	Makes sense. Have you seen the RN stamps on any of the later Brit pattern cutlasses? A while back, there was an online auction with several naval pieces marked as such, but again, no gov't issuance mark?

11th November 2022, 06:13 AM	#8
adrian Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 132	Have you seen the RN stamps on any of the later Brit pattern cutlasses? Not that I recollect, however my interest in cutlasses does not run to any great depth. A while back, there was an online auction with several naval pieces marked as such, but again, no gov't issuance mark? Whilst I am familiar with various items & ordnance intended for sea service often bearing the letter 'N' to distinguish that it is for Naval issue those items were Ordnance supplied and as such they bear Ordnance inspection stamps etc. An item dating from the Georgian to the mid/late Victorian period marked RN would therefore get my attention as being outside of this, and if it bore no Ordnance markings then I would consider it to be highly suspect as far as it being a British sea service item. For anything later, I do not know enough to do other than speculate.

11th November 2022, 03:20 PM	#10
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 357	Reference the VR cutlass. It was the faded cypher I owned and it was very well used and worn. I spotted the other one go through an auction and stole the pictures. I'm told the crown is correct for the period a James Crown - again my knowledge is limited in that area. It does look similar to the crown on Adrian's two examples and the coastguard with the two crosses at the front of the same period. But it is very different from the GR crown on Mark's 1804 in post 3.