The m1804 British naval cutlass

[Radboud]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I admit I have always wanted one of these for the simple but rugged design which very much represent the great history of these ships. The early examples that had the makers name on the blade back are the most intriguing. As far as I have seen there are Wooley & Deakin; Bate (pre 1806) and J. Gill.

Jim, do you happen to have any photographs of the J. Gill stamp?

There is evidence that James Gill did continue as a cutler for a time after the passing of his father, however, it is believed that the blades he used were supplied by his brother, John. It would be great to see evidence that supports the possibility that John made his own blades as well.

Richard Dellar has a great chapter on the Gill family in his book on British Cavalry sabres.

[toaster5sqn]

Thanks Radbound, I notice that among the sources is an 1800 advert that notes the swords are fitted with German blades suggesting that the Gill family did not start manufacturing blades till after this date.

Robert

[Radboud]

Originally Posted by toaster5sqn

Thanks Radbound, I notice that among the sources is an 1800 advert that notes the swords are fitted with German blades suggesting that the Gill family did not start manufacturing blades till after this date.

Robert

Thomas Gill Snr. Was most certainly manufacturing his own blades before his death in 1801, since this was the whole point of the tests, to prove that the blades he made were the best available. (It is widely believed that Thomas Gill was the original source of the "Warranted Never to Fail" quality mark that became popular in the period).

Although there is evidence that he wasn't above selling German blades as well, seeking to acquire some of the stock that had been confiscated from J J Runkel for avoiding duty on his imports.

[toaster5sqn]

Originally Posted by Radboud

Thomas Gill Snr. Was most certainly manufacturing his own blades before his death in 1801, since this was the whole point of the tests, to prove that the blades he made were the best available. (It is widely believed that Thomas Gill was the original source of the "Warranted Never to Fail" quality mark that became popular in the period).

Although there is evidence that he wasn't above selling German blades as well, seeking to acquire some of the stock that had been confiscated from J J Runkel for avoiding duty on his imports.

The more you learn the less clear cut it becomes!

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Radboud

Thomas Gill Snr. Was most certainly manufacturing his own blades before his death in 1801, since this was the whole point of the tests, to prove that the blades he made were the best available. (It is widely believed that Thomas Gill was the original source of the "Warranted Never to Fail" quality mark that became popular in the period).

Although there is evidence that he wasn't above selling German blades as well, seeking to acquire some of the stock that had been confiscated from J J Runkel for avoiding duty on his imports.

Thomas Gill II was indeed making swords as early as 1780, in fact was already involved in petitions etc regarding issues with importing German blades to be hilted by English cutlers. By 1787 there was a trial against J J Runkel for damages favor of the five known makers in England at the time.

Gill definitely had some questionable actions involving these matters, and there were claims that Gill even may have had connections to Matthew Boulton (London inventor and swordsmith) who is believed to have invented the machine used.
Thomas Gill II is the Gill we are discussing, it gets confusing as his son Thomas III was involved for a very short time in the business.

[Jim McDougall]

The J Gill thing was my own faux pas guys! I was thinking out loud of John, and should have used 'I 'as marked. Oops

[Radboud]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Gill definitely had some questionable actions involving these matters, and there were claims that Gill even may have had connections to Matthew Boulton (London inventor and swordsmith) who is believed to have invented the machine used.
Thomas Gill II is the Gill we are discussing, it gets confusing as his son Thomas III was involved for a very short time in the business.

You need to get Richard Dellars book on the British Cavalry Swords, he has two excellent chapters on Gill and J J Runkel which covers this period in a lot of detail.

Thomas Gill II did a lot of machining work for Matthew Boulton and was openly praised by the latter for the precision and quality of his work. They almost certainly worked together on the testing machine that was used.

[M ELEY]

I found this interesting thread from a while back concerning the Swedish edition of the m1804. Can anyone confirm if there truly was a version in Sweden called the m1849?? I'll have to do some searching when I get a moment. Celtan mentions the German version, no doubt the S&K we mentioned. The Americans were copying the m1804, but instead of the ribbed iron grip, we usually see either a smooth-core wooden grip or a ribbed curly maple grip. From these U.S. private purchase-types of the period, we begin to see the so-called Baltimore pattern cutlass appear (ribbed maple grips, figure-of-eight hilt of black iron with rolled quillon with either straight, spear-point blades or curved clip-point blades). This article mentions a Portuguese and Spanish version or after-market use of this model? Fernando, are you aware of any such influx? This old thread hints that the crown by itself models weren't Swede? Could they be for the Portugal market?

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7240

[M ELEY]

The answer to the conundrum! Very interesting history that covers the Spanish, Portuguese and Swedish connection. These swords certainly made their way around!

http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.12781.html

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Radboud

Jim, do you happen to have any photographs of the J. Gill stamp?

There is evidence that James Gill did continue as a cutler for a time after the passing of his father, however, it is believed that the blades he used were supplied by his brother, John. It would be great to see evidence that supports the possibility that John made his own blades as well.

Richard Dellar has a great chapter on the Gill family in his book on British Cavalry sabres.

Richard Dellar's book is outstanding!! as is the supplement added later.
This image is from a M1796 heavy cavalry disc hilt made in 1814, According to my understanding of Dellar's chapter, John was indeed the one making blades .
He passed in 1817, and his widow Elizabeth took over the business. It is unclear who made the blades at this point.