A kind of pesh kabz, opinion and translation please

gp · 9th July 2022, 02:09 PM

For the ones who did read my post, I deleted it so please look upon my comment as not written
Looking forward to the contributions of both gents in the future, much obliged

ariel · 9th July 2022, 03:00 PM

gp,
I am not ignoring them: I just expressed my general point of view. There is no need or obligation to refer to each and every previous post. Nothing personal, just different views on the practice of attribution.

Unless an item is obviously fake or “tourist”, it deserves careful consideration. Not making an effort to decipher the inscriptions ( especially with an uncertain date) prevents complete assessment of an item. Francantolin asked a legitimate question and specifically asked for translation.

I have consulted with knowledgeable people who can help, and I shall report the results. After that any person can keep his opinion, but at least we shall have full information that the new owner asked for.

francantolin · 13th July 2022, 05:04 PM

Hello,

Thank you Ariel for your messages,
I did some research on internet,
I found this interesting caucasian knife
Dates 1880
with an afghan damascus blade and a renforced tip.
There is a ricasso too and the horn handle looks like
mine

francantolin · 13th July 2022, 05:53 PM

The handle is interesting,
It has been modified later,
Maybe in central asia- caucasian and made for battle
with an indian or afghan older blade.
Maybe wootz, pictures seems ok...

Sure and would be really helpful ,
The translation of the cartouche.
For the date, I will add a dot and make 1309 🙂 .
No, I am kidding but it must be something like that !!
Not mid 20th century made ( for the blade )

francantolin · 13th July 2022, 06:50 PM

The shape of the steel hilt has originally a shamshir hilt shape

Indeed, I never saw a ''shamshir" hilt on a pesh kabz or a zirah bouk .
A remanied blade ?

ariel · 13th July 2022, 07:46 PM

There are plenty of khanjars and pesh kabzes with "shamshir-like" handles. Pics attached; I got them randomly from the Internet. Plenty more were omitted:-)

And yes, the handle is a replacement. Your new pics show it clearly. This, BTW, only strenghtens the idea of a respectable age of the blade.

mahratt · 13th July 2022, 07:55 PM

It is always nice to have an old item made in the 19th, and even more so in the 18th century.
But unfortunately, the knife from message #17 and the knife of the topcaster are very different from each other. It's hard to find something in common between them...
It will certainly be interesting to see the blade of the knife in question after it has been polished and etch it. Let's wait.

ariel · 13th July 2022, 08:05 PM

Just to clarify: nobody makes a direct comparison between a dagger from messages ##17/19 with the one presented by francantolin for discussion. It is viewed and discussed on its own.

francantolin · 14th July 2022, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mahratt

It is always nice to have an old item made in the 19th, and even more so in the 18th century.
But unfortunately, the knife from message #17 and the knife of the topcaster are very different from each other. It's hard to find something in common between them...
It will certainly be interesting to see the blade of the knife in question after it has been polished and etch it. Let's wait.

Hello, sure it's not the same and I didn't said it was caucasian made but here the similarities:

-afghan old blade with ricasso and a not often seen renforced tip on a "european look like battle knife"
-a new hilt made of two parts of brown horn
-a not origina bolster
-scabbard shape with final round tip
( sure, this one is all silver )

You just have to change the shape of the blade...

I'll do an etching but I need nital for reveal what seems to be cristalline wootz

ariel · 13th July 2022, 06:12 PM

Very nice set, including the Caucasian " gazyrs" i.e decorated tubes with premeasured amounts of gunpowder. Although its dating is uncertain ( " circa 1880"), ithe dagger is definitely quite old, well before the 20th century. Both the reinforced tip and the " ricasso" are very prominent. Reinforced tips are seen on Persian and Indian Zirah Bouk khanjar and peshkabz blades. They are very solid and have nothing to do with the puny recent tourist items. The latter are little blobs perched on top of the long and thin distal part of the blade and likely would break off with any contact with metal mail.

And I agree with the Afghani origin of the blade: the decorative elements are " perforated", the feature adopted by the Afghanis from either Persia or S. India, (or both) sometimes in the 17-18 centuries and continued thereafter.

I still do not have any translations, but will report them as soon as I get them.

ariel · 13th July 2022, 06:18 PM

Thanks for the enlarged views of the blade of your pesh-kabz. I saw them literally 5 minutes ago. I have a suspicion that it might be wootz. Can you polish and etch it?

mahratt · 13th July 2022, 08:43 PM

Don't these words:

Quote:

Originally Posted by francantolin

There is a ricasso too and the horn handle looks like
mine

speak of comparison? Maybe I misunderstood because of my bad English? Dear forum members, correct me, please?

Ren Ren · 15th July 2022, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by francantolin

Hello,

Thank you Ariel for your messages,
I did some research on internet,
I found this interesting caucasian knife
Dates 1880
with an afghan damascus blade and a renforced tip.
There is a ricasso too and the horn handle looks like
mine

How time flies! A similar knife was sold at the Imperial auction in 2010 with the attribution "knife of the Crimean Tatars". The owner offered to discuss it in one of the Russian forums. It was a heated discussion on 37 pages!

Most of the participants - but by no means all! - came to the conclusion that this is a knife from Afghanistan.

gp · 15th July 2022, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ren Ren

It was a heated discussion on 37 pages!

and no one said "dawaj, dawaj...pashli, pashli tovarischi..."? :-)))

rough translation: hurry up, dear friends...

must have been very interesting...specially to learn about the pro and cons about it
Also makes me think or sounds like our "change of minds " in this forum are quite short and simple.

Nevertheless I think it is a beautiful piece / ochen krasivo ! Love the 2nd picture !

Ren Ren · 15th July 2022, 10:33 PM

Three of the participants in those events today are present in this topic. We were twelve years younger, had much less knowledge and much more energy and courage!

ariel · 16th July 2022, 12:35 AM

Ren Ren,
Thanks for reminding us of the courage and enthusiasm of our youthful years:-)))

As far as I remember, the main ( or the only ?) argument in favor of Crimean origin was the crooked hilt, analogous or just reminiscent of the Tatar-Circassian Ordynkas.

gp · 16th July 2022, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ren Ren

Three of the participants in those events today are present in this topic. We were twelve years younger, had much less knowledge and much more energy and courage!

so you were young lads "fighting" skirmishes like Georgy Konstantinovich at Khalkhin Gol ?

13th July 2022, 05:04 PM	#3
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 906	Hello, Thank you Ariel for your messages, I did some research on internet, I found this interesting caucasian knife Dates 1880 with an afghan damascus blade and a renforced tip. There is a ricasso too and the horn handle looks like mine Attached Images

13th July 2022, 05:53 PM	#4
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 906	The handle is interesting, It has been modified later, Maybe in central asia- caucasian and made for battle with an indian or afghan older blade. Maybe wootz, pictures seems ok... Sure and would be really helpful , The translation of the cartouche. For the date, I will add a dot and make 1309 🙂 . No, I am kidding but it must be something like that !! Not mid 20th century made ( for the blade ) Attached Images

13th July 2022, 06:50 PM	#5
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 906	The shape of the steel hilt has originally a shamshir hilt shape Indeed, I never saw a ''shamshir" hilt on a pesh kabz or a zirah bouk . A remanied blade ? Attached Images

13th July 2022, 07:46 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	There are plenty of khanjars and pesh kabzes with "shamshir-like" handles. Pics attached; I got them randomly from the Internet. Plenty more were omitted:-) And yes, the handle is a replacement. Your new pics show it clearly. This, BTW, only strenghtens the idea of a respectable age of the blade. Attached Images Last edited by ariel; 13th July 2022 at 08:06 PM.

9th July 2022, 02:09 PM	#1
gp Member Join Date: May 2020 Posts: 841	For the ones who did read my post, I deleted it so please look upon my comment as not written Looking forward to the contributions of both gents in the future, much obliged Last edited by gp; 9th July 2022 at 03:23 PM.

9th July 2022, 03:00 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	gp, I am not ignoring them: I just expressed my general point of view. There is no need or obligation to refer to each and every previous post. Nothing personal, just different views on the practice of attribution. Unless an item is obviously fake or “tourist”, it deserves careful consideration. Not making an effort to decipher the inscriptions ( especially with an uncertain date) prevents complete assessment of an item. Francantolin asked a legitimate question and specifically asked for translation. I have consulted with knowledgeable people who can help, and I shall report the results. After that any person can keep his opinion, but at least we shall have full information that the new owner asked for.

13th July 2022, 07:55 PM	#7
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	It is always nice to have an old item made in the 19th, and even more so in the 18th century. But unfortunately, the knife from message #17 and the knife of the topcaster are very different from each other. It's hard to find something in common between them... It will certainly be interesting to see the blade of the knife in question after it has been polished and etch it. Let's wait.

13th July 2022, 08:05 PM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Just to clarify: nobody makes a direct comparison between a dagger from messages ##17/19 with the one presented by francantolin for discussion. It is viewed and discussed on its own.

13th July 2022, 06:12 PM	#10
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Very nice set, including the Caucasian " gazyrs" i.e decorated tubes with premeasured amounts of gunpowder. Although its dating is uncertain ( " circa 1880"), ithe dagger is definitely quite old, well before the 20th century. Both the reinforced tip and the " ricasso" are very prominent. Reinforced tips are seen on Persian and Indian Zirah Bouk khanjar and peshkabz blades. They are very solid and have nothing to do with the puny recent tourist items. The latter are little blobs perched on top of the long and thin distal part of the blade and likely would break off with any contact with metal mail. And I agree with the Afghani origin of the blade: the decorative elements are " perforated", the feature adopted by the Afghanis from either Persia or S. India, (or both) sometimes in the 17-18 centuries and continued thereafter. I still do not have any translations, but will report them as soon as I get them.

13th July 2022, 06:18 PM	#11
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Thanks for the enlarged views of the blade of your pesh-kabz. I saw them literally 5 minutes ago. I have a suspicion that it might be wootz. Can you polish and etch it?

15th July 2022, 10:33 PM	#15
Ren Ren Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Russia, Moscow Posts: 379	Three of the participants in those events today are present in this topic. We were twelve years younger, had much less knowledge and much more energy and courage!

16th July 2022, 12:35 AM	#16
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Ren Ren, Thanks for reminding us of the courage and enthusiasm of our youthful years:-))) As far as I remember, the main ( or the only ?) argument in favor of Crimean origin was the crooked hilt, analogous or just reminiscent of the Tatar-Circassian Ordynkas.