Another Black Sea Yataghan out of Africa

mahratt · 1st July 2022, 08:18 AM

DaveF,
Unfortunately, Tirri wrote his book (not fundamental research, but a pre-sale catalog of his collection) when access to information was limited compared to today. Hence some errors.
Someone can fantasize as much as he like about straightening and bending blades, but facts are stubborn - there are many photos confirming the use of Laz Bichaks in "Turkish Georgia" and not one photo from North Africa. At the same time, French and German ethnographers since the 1800s have written many scientific works with good illustrations on the ethnography of the African population. But you won't find Laz Bichak in them.
So it is worth considering the books of such authors of the recent past as Tirri, Lebedinsky and Jacob (undoubtedly respecting them their work), who wrote their books in the years of limited access to information , with a certain skepticism.

ariel · 1st July 2022, 01:14 PM

Jim,
Thanks for your detailed ( as usual) exposition tracing the development of our knowledge about those peculiar Trabzon swords.
As we see, even well before Tirri Danish authors mulled over their peculiar similarities with Flissa. Nothing definitive, but just a placement into the same illustration….

Tirri was the first to openly advance his hypothesis and present salient points of their similarities. He exercised an imaginative “what if” approach to suggest a transition from the straight blade of Flissa to a peculiar yataghan-like blade of Laz Bichagi. I remember seeing the latter with non-forked pommel, but the Laz lived between the Turks and the Georgians with the idea of a split pommel being organic to them, and they created an exaggerated form of it, something akin to the Zelbek creation of T-pommeled yataghan. The resultant Pontic weapon was fascinating and peculiarly beautiful, but practically it was a dud. Whether its short life span was due to the latter or just to simple fact that it appeared on the scene when swords were on their way out is also not certain.
One can only admire Tirri’s idiosyncratic and imaginative approach. Yes, he was wrong in claiming this weapon’s active life to North Africa but his hypothesis of its origin had not been disproved till now. I am afraid we shall never learn the final truth, but that is not a peculiar occasion in the study of weapons coming late in history in small isolates such as Sardinian Leppa or the so-called Bedouin pseudo-shashka.
Let’s give Tirri his final due.

Jim McDougall · 1st July 2022, 06:19 PM

Thanks Ariel,
Its funny to think back then in those late 1990s and all the research. I must admit, then, as always, I have been obsessive about finding out as much as I could on every weapon form I encountered. In fact, Tirri himself in his talk in Baltimore derided my obsessive manner in researching, which was of course because I openly challenged his North African attribution on these intriguing and unusual swords. As I mentioned, by that time I had been deeply researching these for nearly 8 years, and yes, there was limited data on them.

However despite our disagreement I have never put down his efforts and actually commended his book, which is a wonderful book for what it is. It is a great handbook for the grade of weapons which collectors could use for identification by comparing the photos so generously included.

It is true, as with the other authors mentioned, they worked with what they had and published. As Lebedynsky once told me, it takes courage to publish with the prospect of inevitable critics, and said basically, ignore them, just tell people what they need to know. I have always believed that authors place information they have to date, and know full well that rebuttals and new evidence will become known and expect (even encourage) these results.

In Tirri's book I must admit I do not recall that hypothesis being presented (at least in the book), though I'm sure he did have such theories. In the book the only two references were the Russian museum catalog (the khopesh entry) and a sales catalog from a London arms dealer. Actually that dealer, when I asked about the attribution noted openly that his descriptions of course were not always entirely accurate, in a perfectly gentlemanly and bold response.
That, to the best of my knowledge, was the entirety of the description and cited sources for this sword in his book. It has been well known that cites and sources were notably wanting in the book itself, and though not a 'scholarly' work, it serves well as an identification handbook.
I know also that he had several outstanding arms scholars consulting as he compiled the book, and often took exception to their opinions, following instead his own.

As noted, the similarities of these to the flyssa was known some time ago, and by Danish scholars (who seldom get 'their due' as mentioned, in the western theater of arms study). It was likely included in the interesting study by the Hungarian scholar (1896) of these unusual weapons through these Caucasian into Transcaucasian regions.
Like the flyssa itself, the life span of these was short (the earliest known reference to these is 1827) and the earliest known example with provenance I found was 1857. Jacobsen (1941) noted that these were often found in years relatively shortly later in out buildings etc.It seems likely they remained in some degree as traditionally recognized weapons, much as forms in many ethnological settings.

As I earlier noted, my thought is that these evolved in 'Black Sea' regions among the other variations with recurved blades and cleft pommels, and the horned effect had more to do with Persian influences (as with the blade character). As for the needle point, I have always wondered what the origin of this feature was with the flyssa, and I suspect that it may have more to do with Tatar influence. As per Zygulski, Lebedynsky, Ostrowski et al, the saber known as 'ordynka' often carried this feature. Again, the Ottoman tapestry probably brought diffusion of this notable feature.

I'm glad you noted the Zeibek 'T pommel' yataghans which bring to the fore the seeming affinity of these Pontic groups for variation of cleft or unusually shaped pommels, which again supports the regions of origin for this form being as noted, the Black Sea sphere.

Tony Tirri deserves credit for the reference he provided us, which as noted, is great for identification of weapons collectors often encounter, despite the few errors which are inevitable in any published work (including my own posts which are thankfully challenged and corrected).

DaveF · 1st July 2022, 08:12 PM

mahratt, ariel, Jim,

Thanks for your comments and for your thorough summary of the work behind the proper identification of the source of these swords, Jim.

When I first saw this sword it reminded me of something I'd seen on the Africanarms.com website: http://www.africanarms.com/gallery?2...tagan-84-cm-gr This included a link to a sword in the British Museum that was collected in Morocco and presented to the museum in 1892: https://www.britishmuseum.org/collec...ct/E_Af-5986-a.

It was only when I saw discussions on here from years ago, proving the sword's home to be in the Trabzon region that I understood why African Arms called it a Black Sea Yataghan.

Is it unusual that a weapon native to the eastern Black Sea should have a few examples emerging out of North Africa? Is it possible that some copies of the original design were made in North Africa, or is my imagination getting the better of me?

mahratt · 1st July 2022, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveF

mahratt, ariel, Jim,

Thanks for your comments and for your thorough summary of the work behind the proper identification of the source of these swords, Jim.

When I first saw this sword it reminded me of something I'd seen on the Africanarms.com website: http://www.africanarms.com/gallery?2...tagan-84-cm-gr This included a link to a sword in the British Museum that was collected in Morocco and presented to the museum in 1892: https://www.britishmuseum.org/collec...ct/E_Af-5986-a.

It was only when I saw discussions on here from years ago, proving the sword's home to be in the Trabzon region that I understood why African Arms called it a Black Sea Yataghan.

Is it unusual that a weapon native to the eastern Black Sea should have a few examples emerging out of North Africa? Is it possible that some copies of the original design were made in North Africa, or is my imagination getting the better of me?

To paraphrase the famous Latin expression "Viae Domini imperceptae sunt", we can say: "the ways of the swords are inscrutable". Weapons have always been actively moving around the world. So it is not surprising that the sword of Lazes, who, as mentioned above, were sailors, ended up in Morocco. It is also logical that the one who bought Laz Bichak in Morocco (and naturally did not see such a weapon before) decided that this sword was from North Africa.
As an example of unusual "journeys of swords", I suggest looking at this sword in the photo. It is kept in the collection of the Hermitage in St. Petersburg (Russia). We see a Georgian handle and an Indian blade. An unimaginable combination. But nevertheless it exists. And if an Indian blade could have ended up in the Caucasus in the 18th - early 19th centuries, it is not surprising that Laz Bichak ended up in North Africa in the late 19th century

Jim McDougall · 2nd July 2022, 03:07 AM

A very wise arms writer once told me, 'ethnographic weapons have no geographic boundaries', as Mahratt has very well explained.
When Mr. Seifert spoke to me regarding the Black Sea yataghan he had (illustrated in his 1962 book "Schwert Degen Sabel" he told me it had 'strange' writing on it. I of course have no idea what that might have been, but it may have been Georgian (some have been seen with this).

The one Tirri had is claimed to have 'African' script on it (if I recall correctly), which was the foundation of his North African attribution for the form.

As has been noted, the Laz were quite 'mobile' and known in numerous regions where these have been found. This does not mean that these were made there, but transported there and possibly inscribed as per its owner. Often these kinds of situations were in diplomatic kinds of matters.

ariel · 2nd July 2022, 03:55 AM

There is nothing “ unimaginable” about the khanda with Caucasian handle. Mindboggling yes, but one should also remember that Tiflis or Gurian kindjals of hign quality have pattern-welded damascus within their fullers closely reminiscent of Indian design.
Indian wootz “ ingots” were imported by Georgian masters, and I have an 18th century Georgian wootz saber blade . There were wootz masters in Georgia well before famous Geurk Elisarashvili who is known to us as the “greatet” Georgian swordsmith simply because he was a purveyor of the royal family. There were others before him.
Georgians fought in Abbas I and Nader Shah’s armies in Afghanistan and India.
Kirill Rivkin in his books about Caucasian arms and the history of Eastern sword mentions presence of Indian blacksmiths in Tiflis.
The exchange went in the opposite direction as well: Daghestani masters supplied their kindjal and shashka blades to Aravia and India in the second half of the 19 century.
Globalization was not invented 10-20 years ago:-)

Jim McDougall · 1st July 2022, 08:25 PM

I found the title of the Hungarian work I referred to, but as yet have not found the illustrations, which show these Transcaucasian forms with cleft pommel but with wide range of blades. It is "A Magyar Faji Vandor Pa'sa" by J. Zichy of Budapest in 1897. In this there are various hilts (I do not recall if forked is present) but the recurved blades are seen on some.

In about 2009, this dramatically recurved and sickle like (recalling the Abyssinian shotel) turned up at auction. It was well appointed with iconography of Armenian theme and termed of course Armenian. The similarity of course is compelling.

I added an example of the Zeibeck type yataghan for illustration in accord with the discussion.

Next is an example of the style hilt with cleft pommel and hilt resemblances to these Laz bichagi. This one was posted several years ago.

Next is my example of these type hilts, but the blade is notable austere and straight (note Caucasian type motif). These hilts seem to have ended up with quite a number of blade variations, including the recurved form of the Laz bichagi.

Early in my own research, perhaps being too imaginitive, I thought the blade looks somewhat like a version of the ancient Assyrian 'sapara' (this is I believe where the knopesh association was from). Further, I had thought the forked (horned) pommel might be a dramatically exaggerated version of the cleft or T style pommels recalling the horns on the Persian 'gorz' (mace) with demon head (and horns). Considering there is an element of Persian influence as always in these areas, it seemed viable somewhat, even if tenuous.

1st July 2022, 08:18 AM	#1
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	DaveF, Unfortunately, Tirri wrote his book (not fundamental research, but a pre-sale catalog of his collection) when access to information was limited compared to today. Hence some errors. Someone can fantasize as much as he like about straightening and bending blades, but facts are stubborn - there are many photos confirming the use of Laz Bichaks in "Turkish Georgia" and not one photo from North Africa. At the same time, French and German ethnographers since the 1800s have written many scientific works with good illustrations on the ethnography of the African population. But you won't find Laz Bichak in them. So it is worth considering the books of such authors of the recent past as Tirri, Lebedinsky and Jacob (undoubtedly respecting them their work), who wrote their books in the years of limited access to information , with a certain skepticism. Attached Images Last edited by mahratt; 1st July 2022 at 09:08 AM.

1st July 2022, 08:25 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	addendum I found the title of the Hungarian work I referred to, but as yet have not found the illustrations, which show these Transcaucasian forms with cleft pommel but with wide range of blades. It is "A Magyar Faji Vandor Pa'sa" by J. Zichy of Budapest in 1897. In this there are various hilts (I do not recall if forked is present) but the recurved blades are seen on some. In about 2009, this dramatically recurved and sickle like (recalling the Abyssinian shotel) turned up at auction. It was well appointed with iconography of Armenian theme and termed of course Armenian. The similarity of course is compelling. I added an example of the Zeibeck type yataghan for illustration in accord with the discussion. Next is an example of the style hilt with cleft pommel and hilt resemblances to these Laz bichagi. This one was posted several years ago. Next is my example of these type hilts, but the blade is notable austere and straight (note Caucasian type motif). These hilts seem to have ended up with quite a number of blade variations, including the recurved form of the Laz bichagi. Early in my own research, perhaps being too imaginitive, I thought the blade looks somewhat like a version of the ancient Assyrian 'sapara' (this is I believe where the knopesh association was from). Further, I had thought the forked (horned) pommel might be a dramatically exaggerated version of the cleft or T style pommels recalling the horns on the Persian 'gorz' (mace) with demon head (and horns). Considering there is an element of Persian influence as always in these areas, it seemed viable somewhat, even if tenuous. Attached Images

1st July 2022, 01:14 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Jim, Thanks for your detailed ( as usual) exposition tracing the development of our knowledge about those peculiar Trabzon swords. As we see, even well before Tirri Danish authors mulled over their peculiar similarities with Flissa. Nothing definitive, but just a placement into the same illustration…. Tirri was the first to openly advance his hypothesis and present salient points of their similarities. He exercised an imaginative “what if” approach to suggest a transition from the straight blade of Flissa to a peculiar yataghan-like blade of Laz Bichagi. I remember seeing the latter with non-forked pommel, but the Laz lived between the Turks and the Georgians with the idea of a split pommel being organic to them, and they created an exaggerated form of it, something akin to the Zelbek creation of T-pommeled yataghan. The resultant Pontic weapon was fascinating and peculiarly beautiful, but practically it was a dud. Whether its short life span was due to the latter or just to simple fact that it appeared on the scene when swords were on their way out is also not certain. One can only admire Tirri’s idiosyncratic and imaginative approach. Yes, he was wrong in claiming this weapon’s active life to North Africa but his hypothesis of its origin had not been disproved till now. I am afraid we shall never learn the final truth, but that is not a peculiar occasion in the study of weapons coming late in history in small isolates such as Sardinian Leppa or the so-called Bedouin pseudo-shashka. Let’s give Tirri his final due.

1st July 2022, 06:19 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Thanks Ariel, Its funny to think back then in those late 1990s and all the research. I must admit, then, as always, I have been obsessive about finding out as much as I could on every weapon form I encountered. In fact, Tirri himself in his talk in Baltimore derided my obsessive manner in researching, which was of course because I openly challenged his North African attribution on these intriguing and unusual swords. As I mentioned, by that time I had been deeply researching these for nearly 8 years, and yes, there was limited data on them. However despite our disagreement I have never put down his efforts and actually commended his book, which is a wonderful book for what it is. It is a great handbook for the grade of weapons which collectors could use for identification by comparing the photos so generously included. It is true, as with the other authors mentioned, they worked with what they had and published. As Lebedynsky once told me, it takes courage to publish with the prospect of inevitable critics, and said basically, ignore them, just tell people what they need to know. I have always believed that authors place information they have to date, and know full well that rebuttals and new evidence will become known and expect (even encourage) these results. In Tirri's book I must admit I do not recall that hypothesis being presented (at least in the book), though I'm sure he did have such theories. In the book the only two references were the Russian museum catalog (the khopesh entry) and a sales catalog from a London arms dealer. Actually that dealer, when I asked about the attribution noted openly that his descriptions of course were not always entirely accurate, in a perfectly gentlemanly and bold response. That, to the best of my knowledge, was the entirety of the description and cited sources for this sword in his book. It has been well known that cites and sources were notably wanting in the book itself, and though not a 'scholarly' work, it serves well as an identification handbook. I know also that he had several outstanding arms scholars consulting as he compiled the book, and often took exception to their opinions, following instead his own. As noted, the similarities of these to the flyssa was known some time ago, and by Danish scholars (who seldom get 'their due' as mentioned, in the western theater of arms study). It was likely included in the interesting study by the Hungarian scholar (1896) of these unusual weapons through these Caucasian into Transcaucasian regions. Like the flyssa itself, the life span of these was short (the earliest known reference to these is 1827) and the earliest known example with provenance I found was 1857. Jacobsen (1941) noted that these were often found in years relatively shortly later in out buildings etc.It seems likely they remained in some degree as traditionally recognized weapons, much as forms in many ethnological settings. As I earlier noted, my thought is that these evolved in 'Black Sea' regions among the other variations with recurved blades and cleft pommels, and the horned effect had more to do with Persian influences (as with the blade character). As for the needle point, I have always wondered what the origin of this feature was with the flyssa, and I suspect that it may have more to do with Tatar influence. As per Zygulski, Lebedynsky, Ostrowski et al, the saber known as 'ordynka' often carried this feature. Again, the Ottoman tapestry probably brought diffusion of this notable feature. I'm glad you noted the Zeibek 'T pommel' yataghans which bring to the fore the seeming affinity of these Pontic groups for variation of cleft or unusually shaped pommels, which again supports the regions of origin for this form being as noted, the Black Sea sphere. Tony Tirri deserves credit for the reference he provided us, which as noted, is great for identification of weapons collectors often encounter, despite the few errors which are inevitable in any published work (including my own posts which are thankfully challenged and corrected).

1st July 2022, 08:12 PM	#4
DaveF Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: Lancashire, England Posts: 48	mahratt, ariel, Jim, Thanks for your comments and for your thorough summary of the work behind the proper identification of the source of these swords, Jim. When I first saw this sword it reminded me of something I'd seen on the Africanarms.com website: http://www.africanarms.com/gallery?2...tagan-84-cm-gr This included a link to a sword in the British Museum that was collected in Morocco and presented to the museum in 1892: https://www.britishmuseum.org/collec...ct/E_Af-5986-a. It was only when I saw discussions on here from years ago, proving the sword's home to be in the Trabzon region that I understood why African Arms called it a Black Sea Yataghan. Is it unusual that a weapon native to the eastern Black Sea should have a few examples emerging out of North Africa? Is it possible that some copies of the original design were made in North Africa, or is my imagination getting the better of me?

2nd July 2022, 03:07 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	A very wise arms writer once told me, 'ethnographic weapons have no geographic boundaries', as Mahratt has very well explained. When Mr. Seifert spoke to me regarding the Black Sea yataghan he had (illustrated in his 1962 book "Schwert Degen Sabel" he told me it had 'strange' writing on it. I of course have no idea what that might have been, but it may have been Georgian (some have been seen with this). The one Tirri had is claimed to have 'African' script on it (if I recall correctly), which was the foundation of his North African attribution for the form. As has been noted, the Laz were quite 'mobile' and known in numerous regions where these have been found. This does not mean that these were made there, but transported there and possibly inscribed as per its owner. Often these kinds of situations were in diplomatic kinds of matters.

2nd July 2022, 03:55 AM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	There is nothing “ unimaginable” about the khanda with Caucasian handle. Mindboggling yes, but one should also remember that Tiflis or Gurian kindjals of hign quality have pattern-welded damascus within their fullers closely reminiscent of Indian design. Indian wootz “ ingots” were imported by Georgian masters, and I have an 18th century Georgian wootz saber blade . There were wootz masters in Georgia well before famous Geurk Elisarashvili who is known to us as the “greatet” Georgian swordsmith simply because he was a purveyor of the royal family. There were others before him. Georgians fought in Abbas I and Nader Shah’s armies in Afghanistan and India. Kirill Rivkin in his books about Caucasian arms and the history of Eastern sword mentions presence of Indian blacksmiths in Tiflis. The exchange went in the opposite direction as well: Daghestani masters supplied their kindjal and shashka blades to Aravia and India in the second half of the 19 century. Globalization was not invented 10-20 years ago:-)