Bringing Keris with you to Indonesia and back

David · 4th May 2022, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milandro

I am not even sure that there is necessarily a ban to export krises from Indonesia per se in fact, I don’t think so, both new and old are routinely exported.

I believe Alan posted links to the actual laws that apply to this in post #14.

milandro · 5th May 2022, 08:27 AM

As I understand, these laws apply in general to anything that may be of historical national museum interest, like in most countries, but that is not necessarily applying to the krises (per se) or they would completely freeze the trade of krises both old and new is an industry in Indonesia. I see lots of legal businesses legally and openly trading in krises.

David · 5th May 2022, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milandro

As I understand, these laws apply in general to anything that may be of historical national museum interest, like in most countries, but that is not necessarily applying to the krises (per se) or they would completely freeze the trade of krises both old and new is an industry in Indonesia. I see lots of legal businesses legally and openly trading in krises.

I think that these laws undoubtedly apply to keris. The fact that antique keris are still sold and removed from the country is not surprising, but that doesn't mean it is being done legally or without some kind of government regulation.

A. G. Maisey · 7th May 2022, 02:00 PM

There is most definitely an enforceable legal procedure that should be employed in every case where cultural property is to be removed from Indonesia.

Keris & other items of tosan aji are cultural property.

Whether the requirements under the law are enforced or not is a separate matter.

The circumstances that surround each individual case of attempted removal of cultural objects from Indonesia are the elements that determine whether removal can occur without difficulty, or whether attempted removal will result in more difficulty than any reasonable person could desire.

It might help to think of the matter in the same way that we can think of exceeding the speed limit when we are driving a vehicle. Most of the time we can probably get away with it, but sometimes we get caught, after we get caught, sometimes we get fined, sometimes we might not get fined. The determining factors are the circumstances that apply at the time we were breaking the law, the personalities involved, and our own attitude.

5th May 2022, 08:27 AM	#2
milandro Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Netherlands Posts: 487	As I understand, these laws apply in general to anything that may be of historical national museum interest, like in most countries, but that is not necessarily applying to the krises (per se) or they would completely freeze the trade of krises both old and new is an industry in Indonesia. I see lots of legal businesses legally and openly trading in krises.

7th May 2022, 02:00 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	There is most definitely an enforceable legal procedure that should be employed in every case where cultural property is to be removed from Indonesia. Keris & other items of tosan aji are cultural property. Whether the requirements under the law are enforced or not is a separate matter. The circumstances that surround each individual case of attempted removal of cultural objects from Indonesia are the elements that determine whether removal can occur without difficulty, or whether attempted removal will result in more difficulty than any reasonable person could desire. It might help to think of the matter in the same way that we can think of exceeding the speed limit when we are driving a vehicle. Most of the time we can probably get away with it, but sometimes we get caught, after we get caught, sometimes we get fined, sometimes we might not get fined. The determining factors are the circumstances that apply at the time we were breaking the law, the personalities involved, and our own attitude.