Bringing Keris with you to Indonesia and back

milandro · 28th April 2022, 10:29 AM

would it not be advisable to send via a courier ahead of time and them collect over there and then send back the same way? I have bought from there and sending was not difficult (for the person who knows how to do these things).

Anthony G. · 29th April 2022, 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milandro

would it not be advisable to send via a courier ahead of time and them collect over there and then send back the same way? I have bought from there and sending was not difficult (for the person who knows how to do these things).

Tricky, and indeed time has changed. Recently I have a Balinese forged a keris and when preparing to send to Singapore, no couriers in Bali wants to ship it. Reason: sharp weapon.

milandro · 29th April 2022, 07:40 AM

my source tells me that UPS does that while DHL doesn’t

Marcokeris · 29th April 2022, 08:29 AM

In my case, when i returned to Italy from Indonesia i always brought with me, in the big suitcase, at least 2 kris and i never had any problem both on boarding (Bali, Medan, Yogya or Jakarta) and on arrival in Milan. When I boarded, I told the baggage control officer that there were kris, bought as souvenirs, in the big suitcase. I have done this at least 30 times with no problems.... In Milan, unlike in Rome, baggage control is practically non-existent

milandro · 29th April 2022, 09:16 AM

Generally speaking, I think, customs officers everywhere in the world are aware that people buy many weapon shaped objects (because once they are in the suitcases not taken in the cabin they can only see them quickly going through the scanners and a tourist kris would look like an antique and vice-versa) and take them back, in the past many took spears ( extra long now and probably you can only take them as special luggage if not dismounted) from Kenya for example (I used to have several).

They would be generally tolerant. It is an industry after all and if they would make this impossible nobody would buy the tons of stuff they sell there.

BUT

the rules specifically state that you must declare entering of exiting Indonesia that you are carrying a “ sharp weapon”.

I think, provided you do this, nothing really happens, it is not “ forbidden” , you just have to comply (if you don’t you may get in trouble but most probably you won’t if you are traveling on a plane full of holiday makers)

Garuda goes as far as to specifically mention the kris among all the specially restricted articles

“....These following items may be carried by passenger only in their checked baggage:

Pointed/edged weapons and sharp object: Axes; hatches; arrows and darts; crampons; Ice axes and ice picks; any kind of knives (lockable or flick knives, pocket knives and scalpels); meat cleavers; machetes; swords; kris; open razor; scissors; throwing stars; trademan’s tool (drills, box cutter, all saws, hammer, screwdriver) and any other items which has pointed/edged shape.
NOTE:

If you bring any of the above mentioned objects, please report to our staff at the airport Check-in Counter.
Any sharp objects in checked baggage should be sheathed or securely wrapped to prevent injury to our baggage handlers...”

this is the real purpose of this, I think, the protection of people at the airports

Upon arrival anywhere you may be asked to open you luggage but the only real concern is that you are bringing in taxable items. In fact most probably you won’t have to pay anything for a kris which you are going to describe as a souvenir.

Sending anything though will be taxed at least the VAT (in Europe) , they are all very strict on this, now, ( since last June).

milandro · 29th April 2022, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony G.

Tricky, and indeed time has changed. Recently I have a Balinese forged a keris and when preparing to send to Singapore, no couriers in Bali wants to ship it. Reason: sharp weapon.

Singapore may have their own “ problems” about this and the problem is there and not in Indonesia.

The Keris collector ( youtube channel) says that Singapore has special rules about this. Krises are classed as weapons there. You need to apply for a license to import weapons.

Please watch this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYEAG-s5xok

as for legislation in other countries this may or may be not always treating the kris as a weapon.

In the NL for example they are classed as “ forbidden” because they are double edged and longer than what the law allows for , however since they are also “ antiques” and a ritual object their possession is allowed albeit not clearly defined in the law. I can also transport a kris in the car provided it is sheathed and best kept in a closed bag.

In Italy , of course Marco would know this, official rules should also allow to have a maximum of 8 such “ weapons”, unless you have a special collector license, if you have less than 8 you are supposed to declare this to the police... I am not sure many people do this but that is what one should be doing.

In the last few years the OFFICIAL rules have changed a lot, that doesn’t mean that everyone complies

https://www.perizieantiquariato.it/l...da-collezione/

Anthony G. · 29th April 2022, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milandro

Singapore may have their own “ problems” about this and the problem is there and not in Indonesia.

The Keris collector ( youtube channel) says that Singapore has special rules about this. Krises are classed as weapons there. You need to apply for a license to import weapons.

Please watch this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYEAG-s5xok

as for legislation in other countries this may or may be not always treating the kris as a weapon.

In the NL for example they are classed as “ forbidden” because they are double edged and longer than what the law allows for , however since they are also “ antiques” and a ritual object their possession is allowed albeit not clearly defined in the law. I can also transport a kris in the car provided it is sheathed and best kept in a closed bag.

In Italy , of course Marco would know this, official rules should also allow to have a maximum of 8 such “ weapons”, unless you have a special collector license, if you have less than 8 you are supposed to declare this to the police... I am not sure many people do this but that is what one should be doing.

In the last few years the OFFICIAL rules have changed a lot, that doesn’t mean that everyone complies

https://www.perizieantiquariato.it/l...da-collezione/

I knew this person personally but I do not wish to comment anything about him or the video.

As long a person follows protocol, declare correctly, honestly and also without a criminal records; it is not an issue to import keris thou export is challenging.

The issue is regardless of export and or import purpose, the carriers do not wish to deliver it due to classification of weapons. But some carriers do so.......

A. G. Maisey · 29th April 2022, 10:53 PM

The law in respect of removal of cultural property from Indonesia is pretty clear.

In very simple terms it is not a legal act to remove cultural property from Indonesia if the law states that you may not.

Two pieces of relatively recent law are worth noting:-

Law No. 11/2010
https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/appli...0%5BEng%5D.pdf

and

Law No. 5/2017

this law deals with the advancement of culture and as far as I know it is presently bogged down in bureaucratic inactivity.

Other laws that prohibit removal of cultural property from Indonesia go back to before WWII, and my understanding is that they are still enforceable.

Anybody who has the old "Ensiklopedi Budaya Nasional" can turn to the end of the book and find several pages that will make the legal position quite clear in respect of exporting keris & other cultural property from Indonesia.

This text is all in Bahasa Indonesia, but it is very clear that the author of Ensiklopedi wanted everybody to understand that it is not a real good idea to remove keris & and other cultural property from Indonesia.

Every time you exit Indonesia with keris, or anything else in your suitcases that could be deemed to be culturally important, you do run a risk. However, like all risk this risk of taking keris out of Indonesia is able to be analysed, evaluated, ranked & managed.

But we cannot carry out any risk analysis unless we know exactly what the risk entails. Until we thoroughly understand any risk, we cannot manage that risk.

Its all very well for us to recount our individual experiences and come to the conclusion that overall, taking keris & other property out of Indonesian has a very low level of risk. But that level of risk will vary for somebody who is experienced and somebody who has no experience at all.

The risk will also vary according to the nature of the individual people one needs to deal with, and the overall situation as it applies at any particular time. This element of risk is one that we really cannot protect with any control. It is unknown until such time as the event occurs.

Nobody should walk into this situation of committing an act that has the possibility of landing them in a difficult position without having an understanding of the law and its implications.

My own opinion is that it is far better to solve a problem before it arises than to try to fix things when you're in the middle of a disaster.

At least get an understanding of all the elements involved before you do anything that could result in an undesirable outcome. Try to move around problems rather than meet them head on.

shadejoy · 3rd May 2022, 01:21 AM

Shipping the Keris is definitely an option. In fact, all of my Kerises were sent through FedEx from Indonesia. I encountered no issue receiving via shipping mail. FedEx took care and sent me billing of custom fee a few days after receiving the package.

But through this thread, I am weighing the pros and cons of bringing the Keris with me instead. Trying to do my homework and not leaving anything up to chance. I will only bring two pieces of Keris with me.

Take away I can see here is DECLARE, DECLARE, DECLARE. I will have them sheathed and securely wrapped in checked baggage. Getting an invoice indicating the pieces are souvenirs is a good idea as well on my way back to US ..thank you for the hint.
Given the fact that we don't break any rules I think Indonesia airport authority have come along way since the days of 'salam tempel'. But ultimately, I should 'prepare' myself for any scenario that might play out since experiences with Indonesian custom seem to be varied. Being forthright. And Polite too, of course ..which is a default mode for any settings.

Thank you all for your input, much appreciated!

ariel · 3rd May 2022, 11:03 PM

In any authoritarian society the severity of laws is mitigated by their selective obedience.
In Russia, for example, this rule is formulated as:” The law is like a telegraph pole: you cannot jump over it, but you can just go around “.

29th April 2022, 10:53 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	The law in respect of removal of cultural property from Indonesia is pretty clear. In very simple terms it is not a legal act to remove cultural property from Indonesia if the law states that you may not. Two pieces of relatively recent law are worth noting:- Law No. 11/2010 https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/appli...0%5BEng%5D.pdf and Law No. 5/2017 this law deals with the advancement of culture and as far as I know it is presently bogged down in bureaucratic inactivity. Other laws that prohibit removal of cultural property from Indonesia go back to before WWII, and my understanding is that they are still enforceable. Anybody who has the old "Ensiklopedi Budaya Nasional" can turn to the end of the book and find several pages that will make the legal position quite clear in respect of exporting keris & other cultural property from Indonesia. This text is all in Bahasa Indonesia, but it is very clear that the author of Ensiklopedi wanted everybody to understand that it is not a real good idea to remove keris & and other cultural property from Indonesia. Every time you exit Indonesia with keris, or anything else in your suitcases that could be deemed to be culturally important, you do run a risk. However, like all risk this risk of taking keris out of Indonesia is able to be analysed, evaluated, ranked & managed. But we cannot carry out any risk analysis unless we know exactly what the risk entails. Until we thoroughly understand any risk, we cannot manage that risk. Its all very well for us to recount our individual experiences and come to the conclusion that overall, taking keris & other property out of Indonesian has a very low level of risk. But that level of risk will vary for somebody who is experienced and somebody who has no experience at all. The risk will also vary according to the nature of the individual people one needs to deal with, and the overall situation as it applies at any particular time. This element of risk is one that we really cannot protect with any control. It is unknown until such time as the event occurs. Nobody should walk into this situation of committing an act that has the possibility of landing them in a difficult position without having an understanding of the law and its implications. My own opinion is that it is far better to solve a problem before it arises than to try to fix things when you're in the middle of a disaster. At least get an understanding of all the elements involved before you do anything that could result in an undesirable outcome. Try to move around problems rather than meet them head on. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 30th April 2022 at 12:47 PM. Reason: spelling

28th April 2022, 10:29 AM	#1
milandro Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Netherlands Posts: 487	would it not be advisable to send via a courier ahead of time and them collect over there and then send back the same way? I have bought from there and sending was not difficult (for the person who knows how to do these things).

29th April 2022, 07:40 AM	#3
milandro Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Netherlands Posts: 487	my source tells me that UPS does that while DHL doesn’t

29th April 2022, 08:29 AM	#4
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	In my case, when i returned to Italy from Indonesia i always brought with me, in the big suitcase, at least 2 kris and i never had any problem both on boarding (Bali, Medan, Yogya or Jakarta) and on arrival in Milan. When I boarded, I told the baggage control officer that there were kris, bought as souvenirs, in the big suitcase. I have done this at least 30 times with no problems.... In Milan, unlike in Rome, baggage control is practically non-existent

29th April 2022, 09:16 AM	#5
milandro Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Netherlands Posts: 487	Generally speaking, I think, customs officers everywhere in the world are aware that people buy many weapon shaped objects (because once they are in the suitcases not taken in the cabin they can only see them quickly going through the scanners and a tourist kris would look like an antique and vice-versa) and take them back, in the past many took spears ( extra long now and probably you can only take them as special luggage if not dismounted) from Kenya for example (I used to have several). They would be generally tolerant. It is an industry after all and if they would make this impossible nobody would buy the tons of stuff they sell there. BUT the rules specifically state that you must declare entering of exiting Indonesia that you are carrying a “ sharp weapon”. I think, provided you do this, nothing really happens, it is not “ forbidden” , you just have to comply (if you don’t you may get in trouble but most probably you won’t if you are traveling on a plane full of holiday makers) Garuda goes as far as to specifically mention the kris among all the specially restricted articles “....These following items may be carried by passenger only in their checked baggage: Pointed/edged weapons and sharp object: Axes; hatches; arrows and darts; crampons; Ice axes and ice picks; any kind of knives (lockable or flick knives, pocket knives and scalpels); meat cleavers; machetes; swords; kris; open razor; scissors; throwing stars; trademan’s tool (drills, box cutter, all saws, hammer, screwdriver) and any other items which has pointed/edged shape. NOTE: If you bring any of the above mentioned objects, please report to our staff at the airport Check-in Counter. Any sharp objects in checked baggage should be sheathed or securely wrapped to prevent injury to our baggage handlers...” this is the real purpose of this, I think, the protection of people at the airports Upon arrival anywhere you may be asked to open you luggage but the only real concern is that you are bringing in taxable items. In fact most probably you won’t have to pay anything for a kris which you are going to describe as a souvenir. Sending anything though will be taxed at least the VAT (in Europe) , they are all very strict on this, now, ( since last June).

3rd May 2022, 01:21 AM	#9
shadejoy Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Massachusetts, US Posts: 67	Shipping the Keris is definitely an option. In fact, all of my Kerises were sent through FedEx from Indonesia. I encountered no issue receiving via shipping mail. FedEx took care and sent me billing of custom fee a few days after receiving the package. But through this thread, I am weighing the pros and cons of bringing the Keris with me instead. Trying to do my homework and not leaving anything up to chance. I will only bring two pieces of Keris with me. Take away I can see here is DECLARE, DECLARE, DECLARE. I will have them sheathed and securely wrapped in checked baggage. Getting an invoice indicating the pieces are souvenirs is a good idea as well on my way back to US ..thank you for the hint. Given the fact that we don't break any rules I think Indonesia airport authority have come along way since the days of 'salam tempel'. But ultimately, I should 'prepare' myself for any scenario that might play out since experiences with Indonesian custom seem to be varied. Being forthright. And Polite too, of course ..which is a default mode for any settings. Thank you all for your input, much appreciated!

3rd May 2022, 11:03 PM	#10
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	In any authoritarian society the severity of laws is mitigated by their selective obedience. In Russia, for example, this rule is formulated as:” The law is like a telegraph pole: you cannot jump over it, but you can just go around “.