Bringing Keris with you to Indonesia and back

A. G. Maisey · 29th April 2022, 10:53 PM

The law in respect of removal of cultural property from Indonesia is pretty clear.

In very simple terms it is not a legal act to remove cultural property from Indonesia if the law states that you may not.

Two pieces of relatively recent law are worth noting:-

Law No. 11/2010
https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/appli...0%5BEng%5D.pdf

and

Law No. 5/2017

this law deals with the advancement of culture and as far as I know it is presently bogged down in bureaucratic inactivity.

Other laws that prohibit removal of cultural property from Indonesia go back to before WWII, and my understanding is that they are still enforceable.

Anybody who has the old "Ensiklopedi Budaya Nasional" can turn to the end of the book and find several pages that will make the legal position quite clear in respect of exporting keris & other cultural property from Indonesia.

This text is all in Bahasa Indonesia, but it is very clear that the author of Ensiklopedi wanted everybody to understand that it is not a real good idea to remove keris & and other cultural property from Indonesia.

Every time you exit Indonesia with keris, or anything else in your suitcases that could be deemed to be culturally important, you do run a risk. However, like all risk this risk of taking keris out of Indonesia is able to be analysed, evaluated, ranked & managed.

But we cannot carry out any risk analysis unless we know exactly what the risk entails. Until we thoroughly understand any risk, we cannot manage that risk.

Its all very well for us to recount our individual experiences and come to the conclusion that overall, taking keris & other property out of Indonesian has a very low level of risk. But that level of risk will vary for somebody who is experienced and somebody who has no experience at all.

The risk will also vary according to the nature of the individual people one needs to deal with, and the overall situation as it applies at any particular time. This element of risk is one that we really cannot protect with any control. It is unknown until such time as the event occurs.

Nobody should walk into this situation of committing an act that has the possibility of landing them in a difficult position without having an understanding of the law and its implications.

My own opinion is that it is far better to solve a problem before it arises than to try to fix things when you're in the middle of a disaster.

At least get an understanding of all the elements involved before you do anything that could result in an undesirable outcome. Try to move around problems rather than meet them head on.

shadejoy · 3rd May 2022, 01:21 AM

Shipping the Keris is definitely an option. In fact, all of my Kerises were sent through FedEx from Indonesia. I encountered no issue receiving via shipping mail. FedEx took care and sent me billing of custom fee a few days after receiving the package.

But through this thread, I am weighing the pros and cons of bringing the Keris with me instead. Trying to do my homework and not leaving anything up to chance. I will only bring two pieces of Keris with me.

Take away I can see here is DECLARE, DECLARE, DECLARE. I will have them sheathed and securely wrapped in checked baggage. Getting an invoice indicating the pieces are souvenirs is a good idea as well on my way back to US ..thank you for the hint.
Given the fact that we don't break any rules I think Indonesia airport authority have come along way since the days of 'salam tempel'. But ultimately, I should 'prepare' myself for any scenario that might play out since experiences with Indonesian custom seem to be varied. Being forthright. And Polite too, of course ..which is a default mode for any settings.

Thank you all for your input, much appreciated!

ariel · 3rd May 2022, 11:03 PM

In any authoritarian society the severity of laws is mitigated by their selective obedience.
In Russia, for example, this rule is formulated as:” The law is like a telegraph pole: you cannot jump over it, but you can just go around “.

David · 4th May 2022, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

In any authoritarian society the severity of laws is mitigated by their selective obedience.
In Russia, for example, this rule is formulated as:” The law is like a telegraph pole: you cannot jump over it, but you can just go around “.

I am not sure that i would equate a nation's attempt to keep its cultural history from being sold out from under them to by banning export of one of their most important cultural artifacts a form of "authoritarianism". I think it is more a matter of cultural preservation.

milandro · 4th May 2022, 04:53 PM

I am not even sure that there is necessarily a ban to export krises from Indonesia per se in fact, I don’t think so, both new and old are routinely exported.

David · 4th May 2022, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milandro

I am not even sure that there is necessarily a ban to export krises from Indonesia per se in fact, I don’t think so, both new and old are routinely exported.

I believe Alan posted links to the actual laws that apply to this in post #14.

milandro · 5th May 2022, 08:27 AM

As I understand, these laws apply in general to anything that may be of historical national museum interest, like in most countries, but that is not necessarily applying to the krises (per se) or they would completely freeze the trade of krises both old and new is an industry in Indonesia. I see lots of legal businesses legally and openly trading in krises.

29th April 2022, 10:53 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	The law in respect of removal of cultural property from Indonesia is pretty clear. In very simple terms it is not a legal act to remove cultural property from Indonesia if the law states that you may not. Two pieces of relatively recent law are worth noting:- Law No. 11/2010 https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/appli...0%5BEng%5D.pdf and Law No. 5/2017 this law deals with the advancement of culture and as far as I know it is presently bogged down in bureaucratic inactivity. Other laws that prohibit removal of cultural property from Indonesia go back to before WWII, and my understanding is that they are still enforceable. Anybody who has the old "Ensiklopedi Budaya Nasional" can turn to the end of the book and find several pages that will make the legal position quite clear in respect of exporting keris & other cultural property from Indonesia. This text is all in Bahasa Indonesia, but it is very clear that the author of Ensiklopedi wanted everybody to understand that it is not a real good idea to remove keris & and other cultural property from Indonesia. Every time you exit Indonesia with keris, or anything else in your suitcases that could be deemed to be culturally important, you do run a risk. However, like all risk this risk of taking keris out of Indonesia is able to be analysed, evaluated, ranked & managed. But we cannot carry out any risk analysis unless we know exactly what the risk entails. Until we thoroughly understand any risk, we cannot manage that risk. Its all very well for us to recount our individual experiences and come to the conclusion that overall, taking keris & other property out of Indonesian has a very low level of risk. But that level of risk will vary for somebody who is experienced and somebody who has no experience at all. The risk will also vary according to the nature of the individual people one needs to deal with, and the overall situation as it applies at any particular time. This element of risk is one that we really cannot protect with any control. It is unknown until such time as the event occurs. Nobody should walk into this situation of committing an act that has the possibility of landing them in a difficult position without having an understanding of the law and its implications. My own opinion is that it is far better to solve a problem before it arises than to try to fix things when you're in the middle of a disaster. At least get an understanding of all the elements involved before you do anything that could result in an undesirable outcome. Try to move around problems rather than meet them head on. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 30th April 2022 at 12:47 PM. Reason: spelling

3rd May 2022, 01:21 AM	#2
shadejoy Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Massachusetts, US Posts: 67	Shipping the Keris is definitely an option. In fact, all of my Kerises were sent through FedEx from Indonesia. I encountered no issue receiving via shipping mail. FedEx took care and sent me billing of custom fee a few days after receiving the package. But through this thread, I am weighing the pros and cons of bringing the Keris with me instead. Trying to do my homework and not leaving anything up to chance. I will only bring two pieces of Keris with me. Take away I can see here is DECLARE, DECLARE, DECLARE. I will have them sheathed and securely wrapped in checked baggage. Getting an invoice indicating the pieces are souvenirs is a good idea as well on my way back to US ..thank you for the hint. Given the fact that we don't break any rules I think Indonesia airport authority have come along way since the days of 'salam tempel'. But ultimately, I should 'prepare' myself for any scenario that might play out since experiences with Indonesian custom seem to be varied. Being forthright. And Polite too, of course ..which is a default mode for any settings. Thank you all for your input, much appreciated!

3rd May 2022, 11:03 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	In any authoritarian society the severity of laws is mitigated by their selective obedience. In Russia, for example, this rule is formulated as:” The law is like a telegraph pole: you cannot jump over it, but you can just go around “.

4th May 2022, 04:53 PM	#5
milandro Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Netherlands Posts: 487	I am not even sure that there is necessarily a ban to export krises from Indonesia per se in fact, I don’t think so, both new and old are routinely exported.

5th May 2022, 08:27 AM	#7
milandro Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Netherlands Posts: 487	As I understand, these laws apply in general to anything that may be of historical national museum interest, like in most countries, but that is not necessarily applying to the krises (per se) or they would completely freeze the trade of krises both old and new is an industry in Indonesia. I see lots of legal businesses legally and openly trading in krises.