Ujung Gunung pamor and Combong

David · 16th February 2022, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

IMO this is a recently made blade (end of 20th century) so the style should be rather identified as kamardikan or Tuban putran (replica) if you wish. Of course other opinions are welcome

. Also the pamor pattern looks more like Raja Abala Raja (King of the Kings) rather than Ujung Gunung, but it is not perfectly executed (weld flaw).

Milandro, I am rather inclined to agree with Jean that while your blade might well conform to Tuban standards, it is not likely to be an old Tuban blade. Seems 20th century you me as well.
As to the pamor, identification is not really my strong point when comparing very similar pamor patterns, but i certainly would not have argued with your Ujung Gunung identification. Here is one of mine for comparison that has been identified as Ujung Gunung by a very reliable source.

Jean · 17th February 2022, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Milandro, I am rather inclined to agree with Jean that while your blade might well conform to Tuban standards, it is not likely to be an old Tuban blade. Seems 20th century you me as well.
As to the pamor, identification is not really my strong point when comparing very similar pamor patterns, but i certainly would not have argued with your Ujung Gunung identification. Here is one of mine for comparison that has been identified as Ujung Gunung by a very reliable source.

Hello David,
I would also identify the pamor pattern of your blade as rather Raja Abala Raja or Pendita Bala Pendita than Ujung Gunung. As shown in post #8 from Milandro, the triangular motifs of pamor Ujung Gunung are starting from the sides of the blade, while for pamor RAR and PAP they mainly start from the base of the blade.
However if you search "pamor Ujung Gunung" and "pamor Raja Abala Raja" on Google and see the pics, you will get totally confused, so pamor Ujung Gunung may be correctly attributed for your blade...
BTW your blade looks recent also but well made.
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 17th February 2022, 09:56 PM

Jean, thank you very much for your post #13.

This demonstrates very nicely exactly what I was commenting on in the first paragraph of my post #12.

Now, if we look at Milandro's post #8, we can see somebody or other's idea of the names applicable to several pamors, you have referred back to post #8 and used these names & illustrations to classify the pamor that David has shown in post #11.

David has named the pamor in his keris as Ujung Gunung. This keris looks as if it could have come from me, and I would have named it as Ujung Gunung. It was probably a long time ago, but I would still name it as Ujung Gunung today. As to the age of this keris, it could be either current era, or late colonial, I do not remember it, and I cannot differentiate between the two possibilities from a photo.

The established & reliable dealers in Solo would name it as either Ujung Gunung or Junjung Drajad (drajat).

I believe I might have a copy of the publication that Milandro has taken his picture from, but I forget what it is, and I do not have time to look for it.

However, a quick look at recent publications, "Keris Jawa" & "Ensiklopedi Keris", do have pictures of Ujung Gunung, Raja Abala Raja, & Junjung Drajad. I have copied and posted these pics into this post, and added a number to the left hand side of each picture.

1 --- Ensiklopedi Keris
2 --- Ensiklopedi Keris
3 --- Keris Jawa
4 --- Keris Jawa

When we give an opinion on the classification of anything to do with a keris, it is always a very good idea to support that opinion by giving a reference to the place, time, & possibly person that has enabled us to provide that classification.

Incidentally, I have never heard anybody mention Pamor Raja Abala Raja in Solo, I have seen only one example of this pamor and that was in Malang East Jawa some time prior to 1998, this example was almost exactly as shown in EK, that is with motif elements overlaying each other. I forget what the seller named it as, but I doubt that it was Raja Abala Raja, if it has been I would have remembered that name because it was so unusual. It was probably a Kamardikan.

Just one tiny further comment, it might not be a particularly wise idea to use keris information sourced from online searches to validate anything at all to do with keris. Of course, this comment of mine automatically includes this Forum of ours, and I believe many contributors to this forum would agree that even here we need good, solid background knowledge to sort the wheat from the chaff.

David · 17th February 2022, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

David has named the pamor in his keris as Ujung Gunung. This keris looks as if it could have come from me, and I would have named it as Ujung Gunung. It was probably a long time ago, but I would still name it as Ujung Gunung today. As to the age of this keris, it could be either current era, or late colonial, I do not remember it, and I cannot differentiate between the two possibilities from a photo.

It appears that Alan and i were composing responses at the same time and he has outed himself as my source of identification. Yes Alan, my keris did indeed come from you and it is good to know that you would would still classify this pamor in the same manner.
As to the age of this keris, you were not specific at the time, but i had always assumed it was 20th century, but likely pre-WWII. Though it was acquired for reasons that were not specific to age.

A. G. Maisey · 18th February 2022, 12:15 AM

All that figures David.

I don't like to get specific about things unless I'm close enough to certain to be able support my opinion.

Jean · 18th February 2022, 10:24 AM

It seems that the pamor pics shown by Milandro basically originate from the book "Pamor Keris" written by Bambang Harsinuksmo and first published in 1985, although B.H differentiates between pamor RAR and PAP. I attach the pages related to these styles of pamor patterns, and it translates approximately as follows: "As a difference (between pamor Ujung Gunung, Junjung Derajat, Raja Abala Raja, and Pandito Bolo Pandito), for pamor Ujung Gunung the base of the angled lines start from the edges of the blade. Pamor Raja Abala Raja is similar to Ujung Gunung, but the angled lines which join together start from several places, from the sor-soran, the middle and the tip of the blade. For pamor Pandito Bolo Pandito, the tip of the the angled lines are all joining together at the tip of the blade".
This being said, David, I am not trying to convince you about the ID of the pamor pattern of your blade, I had great difficulties to identify mine, and as said by Alan, the pamor names may be different in Solo than in Yogya or East Java. Pamor Pandito Bolo Pendito is not mentioned in the EK nor book Keris Jawa for instance.

milandro · 18th February 2022, 10:27 AM

I didn’t get it anywhere else than on this very forum, I used the search engine for this type of pamor there was a discussion, there, there was the address which I used in the link to the image

as an extra contribution to this thread (which shows how academic these things may go) , I’ve bought another keris with a SIMILAR ( but not identic) pamor.

For you to study

This is in a Bugis handle and Sarong

David · 17th February 2022, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Hello David,
I would also identify the pamor pattern of your blade as rather Raja Abala Raja or Pendita Bala Pendita than Ujung Gunung. As shown in post #8 from Milandro, the triangular motifs of pamor Ujung Gunung are starting all over the blade, while for pamor RAR and PAP they start from the base of the blade.
However if you search "pamor Ujung Gunung" and "pamor Raja Abala Raja" on Google and see the pics, you will get totally confused, so pamor Ujung Gunung may be correctly attributed for your blade...
BTW your blade looks recent also but well made.
Regards

Thanks for your input Jean. Please don't take offense, but i wasn't really looking for conformation of the the identity of the pamor pattern of my blade. I was only providing it as an example of a pamor that looks similar to Milandro's blade that has also been identified as Ujung Gunung. When i wrote that my blade was identified as such by a very reliable source i meant it was a source which i trust above all others. That is not to say that my source is infallible, but believe i will continue to refer to the pamor on my blade as Ujung Gunung for the time being. One thing is for certain, this attribution was not obtained by googling "pamor Ujung Gunung" and "pamor Raja Abala Raja" and making online comparisons.

I did make note of the drawings presented by Milandro in post #8. The problem here is why should we consider these drawings to be accurate renderings of the manner in which these pamors are formed. Here, for instance, is another set of drawings that present pamor and dhapur. Please note the way Ujung Gunung is depicted on the left in this illustration showing that pamor. Now look at the other illustration i have posted showing someone else's idea of pamor Raja Abala Raja.This one certainly doesn't look like my keris, does it? It looks more like what is described in the illustration Milandro presented as Junjung Derajat.
Welcome to the Name Game.
As Alan questioned above. "So, correct? Correct according to who?".
Are there really any questions in the keris world that all the "experts" can ever truly agree on? In the end, you choose your experts and i'll choose mine.

17th February 2022, 09:56 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Jean, thank you very much for your post #13. This demonstrates very nicely exactly what I was commenting on in the first paragraph of my post #12. Now, if we look at Milandro's post #8, we can see somebody or other's idea of the names applicable to several pamors, you have referred back to post #8 and used these names & illustrations to classify the pamor that David has shown in post #11. David has named the pamor in his keris as Ujung Gunung. This keris looks as if it could have come from me, and I would have named it as Ujung Gunung. It was probably a long time ago, but I would still name it as Ujung Gunung today. As to the age of this keris, it could be either current era, or late colonial, I do not remember it, and I cannot differentiate between the two possibilities from a photo. The established & reliable dealers in Solo would name it as either Ujung Gunung or Junjung Drajad (drajat). I believe I might have a copy of the publication that Milandro has taken his picture from, but I forget what it is, and I do not have time to look for it. However, a quick look at recent publications, "Keris Jawa" & "Ensiklopedi Keris", do have pictures of Ujung Gunung, Raja Abala Raja, & Junjung Drajad. I have copied and posted these pics into this post, and added a number to the left hand side of each picture. 1 --- Ensiklopedi Keris 2 --- Ensiklopedi Keris 3 --- Keris Jawa 4 --- Keris Jawa When we give an opinion on the classification of anything to do with a keris, it is always a very good idea to support that opinion by giving a reference to the place, time, & possibly person that has enabled us to provide that classification. Incidentally, I have never heard anybody mention Pamor Raja Abala Raja in Solo, I have seen only one example of this pamor and that was in Malang East Jawa some time prior to 1998, this example was almost exactly as shown in EK, that is with motif elements overlaying each other. I forget what the seller named it as, but I doubt that it was Raja Abala Raja, if it has been I would have remembered that name because it was so unusual. It was probably a Kamardikan. Just one tiny further comment, it might not be a particularly wise idea to use keris information sourced from online searches to validate anything at all to do with keris. Of course, this comment of mine automatically includes this Forum of ours, and I believe many contributors to this forum would agree that even here we need good, solid background knowledge to sort the wheat from the chaff. Attached Images

18th February 2022, 10:24 AM	#6
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	It seems that the pamor pics shown by Milandro basically originate from the book "Pamor Keris" written by Bambang Harsinuksmo and first published in 1985, although B.H differentiates between pamor RAR and PAP. I attach the pages related to these styles of pamor patterns, and it translates approximately as follows: "As a difference (between pamor Ujung Gunung, Junjung Derajat, Raja Abala Raja, and Pandito Bolo Pandito), for pamor Ujung Gunung the base of the angled lines start from the edges of the blade. Pamor Raja Abala Raja is similar to Ujung Gunung, but the angled lines which join together start from several places, from the sor-soran, the middle and the tip of the blade. For pamor Pandito Bolo Pandito, the tip of the the angled lines are all joining together at the tip of the blade". This being said, David, I am not trying to convince you about the ID of the pamor pattern of your blade, I had great difficulties to identify mine, and as said by Alan, the pamor names may be different in Solo than in Yogya or East Java. Pamor Pandito Bolo Pendito is not mentioned in the EK nor book Keris Jawa for instance. Attached Images Last edited by Jean; 18th February 2022 at 10:55 AM.

18th February 2022, 10:27 AM	#7
milandro Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Netherlands Posts: 487	I didn’t get it anywhere else than on this very forum, I used the search engine for this type of pamor there was a discussion, there, there was the address which I used in the link to the image as an extra contribution to this thread (which shows how academic these things may go) , I’ve bought another keris with a SIMILAR ( but not identic) pamor. For you to study This is in a Bugis handle and Sarong Attached Images Last edited by milandro; 18th February 2022 at 10:48 AM.

18th February 2022, 12:15 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	All that figures David. I don't like to get specific about things unless I'm close enough to certain to be able support my opinion.