Ujung Gunung pamor and Combong

Jean · 16th February 2022, 11:11 AM

IMO this is a recently made blade (end of 20th century) so the style should be rather identified as kamardikan or Tuban putran (replica) if you wish. Of course other opinions are welcome

. Also the pamor pattern looks more like Raja Abala Raja (King of the Kings) rather than Ujung Gunung, but it is not perfectly executed (weld flaw).
Regarding the use of plastic wrap for preserving the blades, I also don't use it as it it not required ind a dry environment like in Europe and I keep my blades into their scabbards. The single occurrence of slight blade rusting which I experienced was because the scabbard was new and the wood not fully dry so the moisture affected the blade. I always carefully drench my blades with WD40 upon receipt and wipe the excess, and occasionally apply cendana oil for improving the smell if required.
Regards

milandro · 16th February 2022, 11:20 AM

thank you, according to the ex-owner (and Indonesian person who took them here when they immigrated) this kris arrived in the NL in the ’50, not that it makes a lot of difference

Raja Abala Raja is even nicer as I am reading of its magic attributions

Jean · 16th February 2022, 11:22 AM

I attach the pics of 2 blades with a pamor pattern tentatively identified as Raja Abala Raja (top) and Ujung Gunung (bottom) for reference and comments if any.
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 16th February 2022, 10:34 PM

I'm going to throw a couple of comments into the ring. I do not wish to generate any sort of debate, but simply to assist general understandings.

Pamor names.

Pamor names vary from place to place and even from person to person.

Most of my own keris experience comes from Solo, and even within this local area I have found variation in names applied to pamor motifs. We might find that members of one group of people will use one interpretation of a motif, others will use a different interpretation and thus a different name.

Some people like to split the same pamor motif into a number of motif sub-groups, and those sub-groups might only be intelligible & accepted to a very limited number of people.

When we get to the group of people who undoubtedly have the greatest knowledge of keris and the deepest background in the keris sub-society, what I have found is that these people tend to group similar motifs into a single overall motif group that covers all similar motifs.

If an alternative name is suggested it becomes almost a matter of "call it what you will".

On the other hand, collectors in this same Javanese society will discuss for hours --- or longer --- what the "correct" name of a pamor motif should be. This "correct" name is frequently promoted without any knowledge at all of what name is used for the same motif a few hours away in, say, Malang, or even an hour down the road in Ngayogya.

So, correct?

Correct according to who?

In Solo some of the biggest & better known keris dealers have family ties that go back a couple of hundred years in the keris sub-society. They can be descended from famous m'ranggis or empus of the past, their fathers might have been m'ranggis or pande keris, their husbands might still be working as m'ranggis or pande keris. It is exactly as we find in Centini:- the market place is where we learn about keris. It is the dealers who hold the knowledge.

But the dealers do not debate with their customers, and they will not impart anything at all that is worth knowing to anybody who is not also a part of the dealer network.

My own principal tutor & mentor, Empu Suparman, was a keris dealer for many years before he became recognised as an empu. When we scrape below the surface we find that keris relationships in Central Jawa run like a hidden web just below the surface of the keris sub-society.

Keris care & preservation

It is a matter of record that I have for many years promoted the use of oil & plastic sleeves as a practical method of protecting keris.

I did not invent this method, I copied what I observed amongst keris dealers and other people in Solo who held large numbers of keris.

It is true that in Jawa & Bali people who have only one or a few keris will seldom use oil or plastic sleeves to protect a blade. Some people will smoke the blade over menyan on Thursday nights --- in Islamic belief Friday begins after sundown on Thursday, and in Islam, Friday is the Holy day. So this menyan ritual is something purely Islam, it is connected to Islam, rather than to historic keris ritual. But the ordinary people do not recognise this, Buddhists & Christians who might have a keris interest will still smoke their keris over menyan on Thursday after sundown.

This regular smoking of a blade helps to delay the onset of corrosion, and a light oiling and then a wipe down of the blade helps even more. But the storage of an oiled blade in an expensive & perhaps irreplaceable wrongko is usually avoided, the reason being that wood, being a cellulose based material will damage ferric material and oil will stain wood.

In Jawa during the wet season corrosion can begin to form within 24 hours.

So, as I said, I copied what I observed being done in Jawa. I used oil and plastic sleeves.

If one chooses not to use some form of protection for a blade , then at the very least the blade should be stored away from its expensive or valued dress wrongko and kept in a sandang walikat storage scabbard, in order to avoid damage, either by oil or by repeated handling, to the wrongko.

In less extreme climates than apply in SE Asia, we can get away with keeping a keris in its wrongko for a few years perhaps, but I have been gathering keris around me for 70 years now, I currently have somewhere between 300 & 400 keris and other edged weapons, that is not counting my pocket knives & belt knives & antique cutlery, then there are the old carbon steel hand tools that belonged to my father, his father, and my great-uncle, that I use in the normal course of benchwork & house repair --- the bits for a brace very quickly deteriorate if not kept in an oiled felt roll.

At times in the past I have had many more keris & edged weapons than I now have. I do not now, & did not ever in the past, have sufficient time to maintain a regular routine of maintenance. My objective has always been to prepare a keris correctly, and then to keep it in a way that will preserve it for those who come after me.

In 2012 I visited several large museums in Europe, several countries were involved. Before I arrived at these museums I had negotiated with the curators for permission to examine and photograph the keris which they held.

I will not comment in detail in respect of what I found, but I will give just one example.

At one very well known museum I had the opportunity to examine exactly the same keris that a well known keris writer had photographed for a reference work that he produced. One of the keris that he published a photograph of in his work, appears in perfect condition in his publication. When I got to examine it, a few years later, that beautiful keris was difficult to remove from its scabbard because corrosion was binding the blade to the scabbard, the scabbard itself needed repair.

The keris and a massive number of other historic weapons were stored higgledepigeldy in open boxes on open shelves. The storage room was constructed like an oversize bank safe, but it was guarding things that were slowly descending into a pile of rust & dust. I assume that the room was climate controlled, but since climate control costs money it might not have been.

I have worked with staff at a major Australian museum that has a few keris in storage. That museum is painfully modern. Ferric items, including keris, are stored out of scabbard on glass shelves in a strictly climate controlled environment. This is ideal storage, but I cannot afford this level of protection, so I use & advise oil & plastic sleeves.

Before I ever received any tuition from Empu Suparman I had been collecting & studying keris for around 30 years. Members of the weapon collector society in Australia and UK had often commented to me that they regarded it as their responsibility & duty to preserve the items that they held for coming generations.

When Empu Suparman began to teach me, he often repeated the same message:- I had a duty to repair, maintain & preserve any keris that I held for later generations. The "repair" duty that Pak Parman added was because he considered that as his continuation I had the knowledge to perform proper traditional repair where that was necessary. His attitude was that he was not just giving his knowledge to me, he was giving his knowledge to the other people whom I would advise & instruct, and thus assist in the preservation of a Javanese heritage.

People in Western societies who treasure the museum approach to keris are adopting a value system that is absolutely contrary to the value system of the originating society. This "do as little as possible" approach is regarded as insulting to the keris, insulting to the people who have previously had it in their care, and most of all, insulting to the maker & his memory.

People who are not immersed in Javanese keris culture observe and sometimes try to follow what they see, or at least, what they believe they see, but they seldom understand the reasons behind what they think they see, and often confuse the way in what they think they see being performed.

When we raise a keris alongside our temple we are paying respect to the memory of the maker of that keris, and to those who have had the keris in their care before us.

Some people will believe that they are paying respect to the isi of the keris, but when we see people paying respect to a keris that by its very nature cannot possibly have any isi, then we recognise the depth of ignorance that can exist, even amongst those who fervently believe that they are behaving correctly.

As I wrote at the beginning of this rather lengthy comment:- I am not up for debate. Accept or reject my comments. I offer these comments in the spirit of homage to those who have taught me.

David · 16th February 2022, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

IMO this is a recently made blade (end of 20th century) so the style should be rather identified as kamardikan or Tuban putran (replica) if you wish. Of course other opinions are welcome

. Also the pamor pattern looks more like Raja Abala Raja (King of the Kings) rather than Ujung Gunung, but it is not perfectly executed (weld flaw).

Milandro, I am rather inclined to agree with Jean that while your blade might well conform to Tuban standards, it is not likely to be an old Tuban blade. Seems 20th century you me as well.
As to the pamor, identification is not really my strong point when comparing very similar pamor patterns, but i certainly would not have argued with your Ujung Gunung identification. Here is one of mine for comparison that has been identified as Ujung Gunung by a very reliable source.

Jean · 17th February 2022, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Milandro, I am rather inclined to agree with Jean that while your blade might well conform to Tuban standards, it is not likely to be an old Tuban blade. Seems 20th century you me as well.
As to the pamor, identification is not really my strong point when comparing very similar pamor patterns, but i certainly would not have argued with your Ujung Gunung identification. Here is one of mine for comparison that has been identified as Ujung Gunung by a very reliable source.

Hello David,
I would also identify the pamor pattern of your blade as rather Raja Abala Raja or Pendita Bala Pendita than Ujung Gunung. As shown in post #8 from Milandro, the triangular motifs of pamor Ujung Gunung are starting from the sides of the blade, while for pamor RAR and PAP they mainly start from the base of the blade.
However if you search "pamor Ujung Gunung" and "pamor Raja Abala Raja" on Google and see the pics, you will get totally confused, so pamor Ujung Gunung may be correctly attributed for your blade...
BTW your blade looks recent also but well made.
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 17th February 2022, 09:56 PM

Jean, thank you very much for your post #13.

This demonstrates very nicely exactly what I was commenting on in the first paragraph of my post #12.

Now, if we look at Milandro's post #8, we can see somebody or other's idea of the names applicable to several pamors, you have referred back to post #8 and used these names & illustrations to classify the pamor that David has shown in post #11.

David has named the pamor in his keris as Ujung Gunung. This keris looks as if it could have come from me, and I would have named it as Ujung Gunung. It was probably a long time ago, but I would still name it as Ujung Gunung today. As to the age of this keris, it could be either current era, or late colonial, I do not remember it, and I cannot differentiate between the two possibilities from a photo.

The established & reliable dealers in Solo would name it as either Ujung Gunung or Junjung Drajad (drajat).

I believe I might have a copy of the publication that Milandro has taken his picture from, but I forget what it is, and I do not have time to look for it.

However, a quick look at recent publications, "Keris Jawa" & "Ensiklopedi Keris", do have pictures of Ujung Gunung, Raja Abala Raja, & Junjung Drajad. I have copied and posted these pics into this post, and added a number to the left hand side of each picture.

1 --- Ensiklopedi Keris
2 --- Ensiklopedi Keris
3 --- Keris Jawa
4 --- Keris Jawa

When we give an opinion on the classification of anything to do with a keris, it is always a very good idea to support that opinion by giving a reference to the place, time, & possibly person that has enabled us to provide that classification.

Incidentally, I have never heard anybody mention Pamor Raja Abala Raja in Solo, I have seen only one example of this pamor and that was in Malang East Jawa some time prior to 1998, this example was almost exactly as shown in EK, that is with motif elements overlaying each other. I forget what the seller named it as, but I doubt that it was Raja Abala Raja, if it has been I would have remembered that name because it was so unusual. It was probably a Kamardikan.

Just one tiny further comment, it might not be a particularly wise idea to use keris information sourced from online searches to validate anything at all to do with keris. Of course, this comment of mine automatically includes this Forum of ours, and I believe many contributors to this forum would agree that even here we need good, solid background knowledge to sort the wheat from the chaff.

David · 17th February 2022, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

David has named the pamor in his keris as Ujung Gunung. This keris looks as if it could have come from me, and I would have named it as Ujung Gunung. It was probably a long time ago, but I would still name it as Ujung Gunung today. As to the age of this keris, it could be either current era, or late colonial, I do not remember it, and I cannot differentiate between the two possibilities from a photo.

It appears that Alan and i were composing responses at the same time and he has outed himself as my source of identification. Yes Alan, my keris did indeed come from you and it is good to know that you would would still classify this pamor in the same manner.
As to the age of this keris, you were not specific at the time, but i had always assumed it was 20th century, but likely pre-WWII. Though it was acquired for reasons that were not specific to age.

A. G. Maisey · 18th February 2022, 12:15 AM

All that figures David.

I don't like to get specific about things unless I'm close enough to certain to be able support my opinion.

Jean · 18th February 2022, 10:24 AM

It seems that the pamor pics shown by Milandro basically originate from the book "Pamor Keris" written by Bambang Harsinuksmo and first published in 1985, although B.H differentiates between pamor RAR and PAP. I attach the pages related to these styles of pamor patterns, and it translates approximately as follows: "As a difference (between pamor Ujung Gunung, Junjung Derajat, Raja Abala Raja, and Pandito Bolo Pandito), for pamor Ujung Gunung the base of the angled lines start from the edges of the blade. Pamor Raja Abala Raja is similar to Ujung Gunung, but the angled lines which join together start from several places, from the sor-soran, the middle and the tip of the blade. For pamor Pandito Bolo Pandito, the tip of the the angled lines are all joining together at the tip of the blade".
This being said, David, I am not trying to convince you about the ID of the pamor pattern of your blade, I had great difficulties to identify mine, and as said by Alan, the pamor names may be different in Solo than in Yogya or East Java. Pamor Pandito Bolo Pendito is not mentioned in the EK nor book Keris Jawa for instance.

David · 17th February 2022, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Hello David,
I would also identify the pamor pattern of your blade as rather Raja Abala Raja or Pendita Bala Pendita than Ujung Gunung. As shown in post #8 from Milandro, the triangular motifs of pamor Ujung Gunung are starting all over the blade, while for pamor RAR and PAP they start from the base of the blade.
However if you search "pamor Ujung Gunung" and "pamor Raja Abala Raja" on Google and see the pics, you will get totally confused, so pamor Ujung Gunung may be correctly attributed for your blade...
BTW your blade looks recent also but well made.
Regards

Thanks for your input Jean. Please don't take offense, but i wasn't really looking for conformation of the the identity of the pamor pattern of my blade. I was only providing it as an example of a pamor that looks similar to Milandro's blade that has also been identified as Ujung Gunung. When i wrote that my blade was identified as such by a very reliable source i meant it was a source which i trust above all others. That is not to say that my source is infallible, but believe i will continue to refer to the pamor on my blade as Ujung Gunung for the time being. One thing is for certain, this attribution was not obtained by googling "pamor Ujung Gunung" and "pamor Raja Abala Raja" and making online comparisons.

I did make note of the drawings presented by Milandro in post #8. The problem here is why should we consider these drawings to be accurate renderings of the manner in which these pamors are formed. Here, for instance, is another set of drawings that present pamor and dhapur. Please note the way Ujung Gunung is depicted on the left in this illustration showing that pamor. Now look at the other illustration i have posted showing someone else's idea of pamor Raja Abala Raja.This one certainly doesn't look like my keris, does it? It looks more like what is described in the illustration Milandro presented as Junjung Derajat.
Welcome to the Name Game.
As Alan questioned above. "So, correct? Correct according to who?".
Are there really any questions in the keris world that all the "experts" can ever truly agree on? In the end, you choose your experts and i'll choose mine.

16th February 2022, 11:22 AM	#3
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	I attach the pics of 2 blades with a pamor pattern tentatively identified as Raja Abala Raja (top) and Ujung Gunung (bottom) for reference and comments if any. Regards Attached Images

17th February 2022, 09:56 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Jean, thank you very much for your post #13. This demonstrates very nicely exactly what I was commenting on in the first paragraph of my post #12. Now, if we look at Milandro's post #8, we can see somebody or other's idea of the names applicable to several pamors, you have referred back to post #8 and used these names & illustrations to classify the pamor that David has shown in post #11. David has named the pamor in his keris as Ujung Gunung. This keris looks as if it could have come from me, and I would have named it as Ujung Gunung. It was probably a long time ago, but I would still name it as Ujung Gunung today. As to the age of this keris, it could be either current era, or late colonial, I do not remember it, and I cannot differentiate between the two possibilities from a photo. The established & reliable dealers in Solo would name it as either Ujung Gunung or Junjung Drajad (drajat). I believe I might have a copy of the publication that Milandro has taken his picture from, but I forget what it is, and I do not have time to look for it. However, a quick look at recent publications, "Keris Jawa" & "Ensiklopedi Keris", do have pictures of Ujung Gunung, Raja Abala Raja, & Junjung Drajad. I have copied and posted these pics into this post, and added a number to the left hand side of each picture. 1 --- Ensiklopedi Keris 2 --- Ensiklopedi Keris 3 --- Keris Jawa 4 --- Keris Jawa When we give an opinion on the classification of anything to do with a keris, it is always a very good idea to support that opinion by giving a reference to the place, time, & possibly person that has enabled us to provide that classification. Incidentally, I have never heard anybody mention Pamor Raja Abala Raja in Solo, I have seen only one example of this pamor and that was in Malang East Jawa some time prior to 1998, this example was almost exactly as shown in EK, that is with motif elements overlaying each other. I forget what the seller named it as, but I doubt that it was Raja Abala Raja, if it has been I would have remembered that name because it was so unusual. It was probably a Kamardikan. Just one tiny further comment, it might not be a particularly wise idea to use keris information sourced from online searches to validate anything at all to do with keris. Of course, this comment of mine automatically includes this Forum of ours, and I believe many contributors to this forum would agree that even here we need good, solid background knowledge to sort the wheat from the chaff. Attached Images

18th February 2022, 10:24 AM	#10
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	It seems that the pamor pics shown by Milandro basically originate from the book "Pamor Keris" written by Bambang Harsinuksmo and first published in 1985, although B.H differentiates between pamor RAR and PAP. I attach the pages related to these styles of pamor patterns, and it translates approximately as follows: "As a difference (between pamor Ujung Gunung, Junjung Derajat, Raja Abala Raja, and Pandito Bolo Pandito), for pamor Ujung Gunung the base of the angled lines start from the edges of the blade. Pamor Raja Abala Raja is similar to Ujung Gunung, but the angled lines which join together start from several places, from the sor-soran, the middle and the tip of the blade. For pamor Pandito Bolo Pandito, the tip of the the angled lines are all joining together at the tip of the blade". This being said, David, I am not trying to convince you about the ID of the pamor pattern of your blade, I had great difficulties to identify mine, and as said by Alan, the pamor names may be different in Solo than in Yogya or East Java. Pamor Pandito Bolo Pendito is not mentioned in the EK nor book Keris Jawa for instance. Attached Images Last edited by Jean; 18th February 2022 at 10:55 AM.

16th February 2022, 11:11 AM	#1
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	IMO this is a recently made blade (end of 20th century) so the style should be rather identified as kamardikan or Tuban putran (replica) if you wish. Of course other opinions are welcome . Also the pamor pattern looks more like Raja Abala Raja (King of the Kings) rather than Ujung Gunung, but it is not perfectly executed (weld flaw). Regarding the use of plastic wrap for preserving the blades, I also don't use it as it it not required ind a dry environment like in Europe and I keep my blades into their scabbards. The single occurrence of slight blade rusting which I experienced was because the scabbard was new and the wood not fully dry so the moisture affected the blade. I always carefully drench my blades with WD40 upon receipt and wipe the excess, and occasionally apply cendana oil for improving the smell if required. Regards

16th February 2022, 11:20 AM	#2
milandro Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Netherlands Posts: 487	thank you, according to the ex-owner (and Indonesian person who took them here when they immigrated) this kris arrived in the NL in the ’50, not that it makes a lot of difference Raja Abala Raja is even nicer as I am reading of its magic attributions

16th February 2022, 10:34 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	I'm going to throw a couple of comments into the ring. I do not wish to generate any sort of debate, but simply to assist general understandings. Pamor names. Pamor names vary from place to place and even from person to person. Most of my own keris experience comes from Solo, and even within this local area I have found variation in names applied to pamor motifs. We might find that members of one group of people will use one interpretation of a motif, others will use a different interpretation and thus a different name. Some people like to split the same pamor motif into a number of motif sub-groups, and those sub-groups might only be intelligible & accepted to a very limited number of people. When we get to the group of people who undoubtedly have the greatest knowledge of keris and the deepest background in the keris sub-society, what I have found is that these people tend to group similar motifs into a single overall motif group that covers all similar motifs. If an alternative name is suggested it becomes almost a matter of "call it what you will". On the other hand, collectors in this same Javanese society will discuss for hours --- or longer --- what the "correct" name of a pamor motif should be. This "correct" name is frequently promoted without any knowledge at all of what name is used for the same motif a few hours away in, say, Malang, or even an hour down the road in Ngayogya. So, correct? Correct according to who? In Solo some of the biggest & better known keris dealers have family ties that go back a couple of hundred years in the keris sub-society. They can be descended from famous m'ranggis or empus of the past, their fathers might have been m'ranggis or pande keris, their husbands might still be working as m'ranggis or pande keris. It is exactly as we find in Centini:- the market place is where we learn about keris. It is the dealers who hold the knowledge. But the dealers do not debate with their customers, and they will not impart anything at all that is worth knowing to anybody who is not also a part of the dealer network. My own principal tutor & mentor, Empu Suparman, was a keris dealer for many years before he became recognised as an empu. When we scrape below the surface we find that keris relationships in Central Jawa run like a hidden web just below the surface of the keris sub-society. Keris care & preservation It is a matter of record that I have for many years promoted the use of oil & plastic sleeves as a practical method of protecting keris. I did not invent this method, I copied what I observed amongst keris dealers and other people in Solo who held large numbers of keris. It is true that in Jawa & Bali people who have only one or a few keris will seldom use oil or plastic sleeves to protect a blade. Some people will smoke the blade over menyan on Thursday nights --- in Islamic belief Friday begins after sundown on Thursday, and in Islam, Friday is the Holy day. So this menyan ritual is something purely Islam, it is connected to Islam, rather than to historic keris ritual. But the ordinary people do not recognise this, Buddhists & Christians who might have a keris interest will still smoke their keris over menyan on Thursday after sundown. This regular smoking of a blade helps to delay the onset of corrosion, and a light oiling and then a wipe down of the blade helps even more. But the storage of an oiled blade in an expensive & perhaps irreplaceable wrongko is usually avoided, the reason being that wood, being a cellulose based material will damage ferric material and oil will stain wood. In Jawa during the wet season corrosion can begin to form within 24 hours. So, as I said, I copied what I observed being done in Jawa. I used oil and plastic sleeves. If one chooses not to use some form of protection for a blade , then at the very least the blade should be stored away from its expensive or valued dress wrongko and kept in a sandang walikat storage scabbard, in order to avoid damage, either by oil or by repeated handling, to the wrongko. In less extreme climates than apply in SE Asia, we can get away with keeping a keris in its wrongko for a few years perhaps, but I have been gathering keris around me for 70 years now, I currently have somewhere between 300 & 400 keris and other edged weapons, that is not counting my pocket knives & belt knives & antique cutlery, then there are the old carbon steel hand tools that belonged to my father, his father, and my great-uncle, that I use in the normal course of benchwork & house repair --- the bits for a brace very quickly deteriorate if not kept in an oiled felt roll. At times in the past I have had many more keris & edged weapons than I now have. I do not now, & did not ever in the past, have sufficient time to maintain a regular routine of maintenance. My objective has always been to prepare a keris correctly, and then to keep it in a way that will preserve it for those who come after me. In 2012 I visited several large museums in Europe, several countries were involved. Before I arrived at these museums I had negotiated with the curators for permission to examine and photograph the keris which they held. I will not comment in detail in respect of what I found, but I will give just one example. At one very well known museum I had the opportunity to examine exactly the same keris that a well known keris writer had photographed for a reference work that he produced. One of the keris that he published a photograph of in his work, appears in perfect condition in his publication. When I got to examine it, a few years later, that beautiful keris was difficult to remove from its scabbard because corrosion was binding the blade to the scabbard, the scabbard itself needed repair. The keris and a massive number of other historic weapons were stored higgledepigeldy in open boxes on open shelves. The storage room was constructed like an oversize bank safe, but it was guarding things that were slowly descending into a pile of rust & dust. I assume that the room was climate controlled, but since climate control costs money it might not have been. I have worked with staff at a major Australian museum that has a few keris in storage. That museum is painfully modern. Ferric items, including keris, are stored out of scabbard on glass shelves in a strictly climate controlled environment. This is ideal storage, but I cannot afford this level of protection, so I use & advise oil & plastic sleeves. Before I ever received any tuition from Empu Suparman I had been collecting & studying keris for around 30 years. Members of the weapon collector society in Australia and UK had often commented to me that they regarded it as their responsibility & duty to preserve the items that they held for coming generations. When Empu Suparman began to teach me, he often repeated the same message:- I had a duty to repair, maintain & preserve any keris that I held for later generations. The "repair" duty that Pak Parman added was because he considered that as his continuation I had the knowledge to perform proper traditional repair where that was necessary. His attitude was that he was not just giving his knowledge to me, he was giving his knowledge to the other people whom I would advise & instruct, and thus assist in the preservation of a Javanese heritage. People in Western societies who treasure the museum approach to keris are adopting a value system that is absolutely contrary to the value system of the originating society. This "do as little as possible" approach is regarded as insulting to the keris, insulting to the people who have previously had it in their care, and most of all, insulting to the maker & his memory. People who are not immersed in Javanese keris culture observe and sometimes try to follow what they see, or at least, what they believe they see, but they seldom understand the reasons behind what they think they see, and often confuse the way in what they think they see being performed. When we raise a keris alongside our temple we are paying respect to the memory of the maker of that keris, and to those who have had the keris in their care before us. Some people will believe that they are paying respect to the isi of the keris, but when we see people paying respect to a keris that by its very nature cannot possibly have any isi, then we recognise the depth of ignorance that can exist, even amongst those who fervently believe that they are behaving correctly. As I wrote at the beginning of this rather lengthy comment:- I am not up for debate. Accept or reject my comments. I offer these comments in the spirit of homage to those who have taught me.

18th February 2022, 12:15 AM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	All that figures David. I don't like to get specific about things unless I'm close enough to certain to be able support my opinion.