Awesome Jacobite period basket hilt broadsword

[fernando]

From all 'certainties' we read out there about the whereabouts of this famous sword, one i find wise to take into account is:
" I suspect Rob Roy had as many swords as he had hiding places ! ".

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

From all 'certainties' we read out there about the whereabouts of this famous sword, one i find wise to take into account is:
" I suspect Rob Roy had as many swords as he had hiding places ! ".

Always good to be skeptical, as it leads to further study and discovery of more compelling evidence. Typically with things historical, there is seldom a final word or conclusion. I have always favored the words, "the thing I love most about history is that it's always changin'!"

Things about Rob Roy MacGregor became expectedly clouded by the fact that he had become essentially legendary in his own time, with the novel "The Highland Rogue" (1723) and the usual local tales. With nearly a century later, Sir Walter Scott's novel "Rob Roy", all this escalated, and of course Scott created a museum or sorts with Rob Roy's purported memorabilia, which was sold to him by a hawker of these tales.

These items of course included 'his sword' (NOT this one we are discussing) and weaponry that had nothing to do with MacGregor.

The story of our sword begins with a family who went to Scottish sword master Paul MacDonald in Edinburgh in 2007, to have the sword of Rob Roy's opponent Charles Stuart restored. With that, he undertook going through the channels he of course had well established, to find the ACTUAL sword of Rob Roy.

As a professional researcher and sword expert, he did find the sword, with remarkable provenance in Moidart, where it had been with a family connected to MacGregor through land dealings etc. It was not in the greatest shape, and had actually been kept in a shed ,hardly the kind of context you would expect a much heralded weapon being exploited as Rob Roy's, instead simply a sword in a family who had given little thought to its importance.

Naturally you are not the first skeptic to think of this, and obviously Maestro MacDonald knew what he would face with this project. Along with restoration comes research and investigation. These efforts are not commonly undertaken by those who rely on the word of others to draw their conclusions.

You note, Rob Roy probably had as many swords as he had hiding places
An interesting analogy, however, the Scots, especially Highlanders, were not like Europeans who might have had a case of rapiers (pair) and several smallswords etc.
The Scot had 'his' sword, which was his pride and honor, much as with the Japanese Samurai.

Earlier in the discussion, we discussed the fact that on the field of Culloden, where well over a thousand men were killed and wounded, of over 4000. ...only 190 broadswords were recovered.

With this, many writers have claimed the Highlanders (rebels) had muskets and pistols, thus the charging Highlander with broadsword is a myth concerning the Culloden travesty.

In my own study of the battle, some of which I described earlier in the thread, it is clear that the broadsword was the PRIMARY weapon. The rebels, after over half hour of pounding by artillery, were pent up and furious, they had men around them blown to pieces. In a raging fury they charged, and threw down their muskets and pistols, unfired in many cases...........raising their broadswords and screaming toward the enemy. Hanoverian accounts noted the ferocity of the Highlanders, like wild animals, and terrifying.
The words of one, over the deafening noise could be heard the clanging of blades as they hit musket barrels, the Highlanders blinded by smoke and fury.

I have read accounts of men seeing their fallen kinsmen, often brothers, cousins, and picking up their swords to be taken away, these were in a manner of speaking, the soul of the Scot. THAT is why there were so few swords found on the field.

If the Scots broadsword was just another sword, out of a cabinet full, or simply a handy tool kept in key locations, like a gun..........such care would not have been taken.

That was the reason the Hanoverians wanted these broadswords, they KNEW. and why they deliberately made the disgraceful fence from the recovered blades......to show disdain to the Jacobites in the most hurtful way, by disgracing their broadswords...thus them.

TRUE, after the fact, people would of course try to hawk swords, just as other items, claiming they were Rob Roy's.......but this had nothing to do with the real Rob Roy in history.
The acts of these charlatans had nothing to do with Rob Roy, who had HIS broadsword, and not swords hidden all over the place. If he may have had others received as gifts etc., which might have occurred, they were still not his sword.

Thanks for the chance to express this in more detail. It really is pretty fascinating history, and though I've studied it many times over the past decades, it never gets old (like me) and I keep learning.

[M ELEY]

I know these things sometimes get shady, like the 'gun that Jesse James used' in such and such a bank robbery, but then again, MANY of these items do have some provenance. We know which dress swords Washington carried. We've discussed other famous and semi-famous swords in the past. I'm certainly no expert, but I'll give the benefit of the doubt to the bloke who did the research and can prove the facts.

Jim, I'm in total agreement with the Scots and their swords. To them, it was not only a weapon, but an heirloom, a symbol, a family tradition. Perhaps it was also the fact that they knew if they lost at Culloden, those weapons would be outlawed. The pride of the Scots were their swords, comparable in some ways to the Japanese soldiers of WW II, who also took swords to war that represented their culture and family traditions. In any case, I'm very proud to be a 'curator' of this sword until I also someday pass it along to someone else who cares as much about it as I do.

[Jim McDougall]

Right Capn,
Paul MacDonald of Edinburgh, who was the one who restored Rob Roys sword in 2007, has an outstanding reputation as a sword restorer, but as a Master of Arms swordsman. This venture began as the family who owned the Stuart sword wielded in the famed duel sought him out to restore the sword.

With this he had the idea of trying to locate Rob Roys 'actual' sword (not examples which had been displayed from the time of Sir Walter Scott). Through meticulous research he finally located it still with a family descended from MacGregor's landlord. It had been kept rather unceremoniously in a shed, and was notably in poor condition though intact.

This is hardly the case where someone has a weapon and is parading it around as belonging to some famous figure, but one researched and found in situ.

There are countless examples of weapons purported to have belonged to famous persons, but too often these have chain of custody and provenance flaws which compromise them. At best they can often serve as 'of the type' examples.
In our familiar studies of pirates, there are the wonderful paintings by Pyle and Wyeth which present colorful images of these characters, despite the inclusion of brass hilt naval cutlasses of Civil War period!

[Battara]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Jim, I'm in total agreement with the Scots and their swords. To them, it was not only a weapon, but an heirloom, a symbol, a family tradition. Perhaps it was also the fact that they knew if they lost at Culloden, those weapons would be outlawed. The pride of the Scots were their swords, comparable in some ways to the Japanese soldiers of WW II, who also took swords to war that represented their culture and family traditions.

Mark I think you hit the nail on the head. You made a great and accurate comparison to the Japanese of WWII and their swords. I have seen Scottish pieces with provenance and family connections go for insane prices.

[M ELEY]

From Robert's/Toaster5sgn's excellent article on Scottish fencing! Finally! An explanation of the added wrist guard to Scottish baskets and their significance to defending against the 'dreaded' hand slash. Yes, I know that's the whole purpose of ALL quillons on the guard; to protect the hand, but here I finally see proof that this 'move' to slash one's opponent's sword hand wasn't just a spur of the moment maneuver, but something practiced in Scottish fencing to get past the seemingly well-protected hand surrounded by the basket.


"The Highlander has nothing regular in Field Attacks and generally chop Right down to an Outside; or with a swinging and low Inside they endeavour to let out the Bowels, whilst every Part of his own Body is cover'd under a Target. In single Combat he aims at nothing more than disabling his Antagonist which he commonly does by chopping him across the Wrest within Side the Sword Arm, which he does in the following Manner; HE runs up boldly to half Sword, receives an Outside, and changing with his Adversary, drops his Blade below the Hilt upon the inside, draws the Edge of his Sword cross his Adversary's Wrest and springing backward saws it at the same Time."