The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

[fernando]

Well, all those considerations sound familiar Jim but, nothing in them deny that spurious smiths names are much more abundant than spurious punzones de espadero ... by far .
Yours humbly !

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Well, all those considerations sound familiar Jim but, nothing in them deny that spurious smiths names are much more abundant than spurious punzones de espadero ... by far .
Yours humbly !

I would imagine they would be most familiar to you considering how long you have studied, but mostly I wanted to detail them here for readers who may be following this line of research. Naturally these details cannot establish which instance may be more common, the use of names or the use of punzones.

I might suggest that in the 'legal' or regulatory aspects of the registration of marks/punzones there were consequences for using the mark of someone else while such wording in statutes did not include the use of names, phrases etc.
I would not try to assert that spurious use of either was more common one over the other, but perhaps this aspect might have had some bearing.
Interestingly, in Solingen, despite the spurious use of foreign markings, German makers went through considerable legal process to purchase use of marks of another maker. In England, the London Cutlers company has detailed records of permissions and grants for marks used by various makers, and forbad the unauthorized use of the mark of another.

I recall reading some time ago that English makers did not like to put their names on their blades as they thought it pretentious, but with the entry of German smiths into the Hounslow shops in the early 17th c. that changed.
With Toledo in demise, for a time in the 17th c. a number of German smiths from Solingen worked there and changed the character of their names being inscribed on their blades, Heinrick Koll for example became Enrique Coll.

I would point out here as well that most makers had more than one mark or punzone, and in the case of families, certain variations or entirely different stamps were used. In certain cases, in Toledo, there were also certain marks which were indicators of the status of espadero del Rey, where tax exemptions were involved. The famed 'man in the moon' crescent seems to have been one of these augmentations. These of course also had certain magic and talismanic properties so it is difficult to specifically identify their use.

Basically, whether marks or names used spuriously on blades had more instance one over the other is anybody's guess, and as always the blade being examined must be judged on its overall merits and clues.

[fernando]

Interesting, the note on English makers omitting their marks to prevent them from been considered pretentious. As written in reliable (as i find) articles, Toledan masters often omitted them on basis that they were known enough to have their blades identified without them. This (article) in relation to explain why Toledan blades were many times not marked. And so other many times they punctured the mark/s of the Toledo guild, instead of their own.
By marks, for the case, the interpretation is related with the smith personal punzones, those often inherited from their ancestors, and not symbols, esoteric or not, like half moons, anchors, ranks (espadero de rey) and other decoration motifs. The reason i tend to assure that the presence of those punzones on blades being inferior to faked smiths names, other than the (supposed) reason above is that, while a name of a famous smith written on the blade is something immediately noticed, ringing a bell to potencial customers, whereas the punzon, being of diminute dimensions, hidden behind the cup bowl and somehow an encripted motif, means little to such customers. In other words lacking marketing appeal.
The 'nationalizing' of names, like Heinrick Koll becoming Enrique Coll, is also a marketing operation ... but not only. Since early times that such procedure takes place; making it easy for locals to spell and pronounce a foreigner name. We usually had, for example, Flemish bombarders aboard ships and German cannon smelters in Lisbon arsenals during the discoveries period, as well as Biscays (even Jews) working in local armour workshops, having their names simplified.


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[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Interesting, the note on English makers omitting their marks to prevent them from been considered pretentious. As written in reliable (as i find) articles, Toledan masters often omitted them on basis that they were known enough to have their blades identified without them. This (article) in relation to explain why Toledan blades were many times not marked. And so other many times they punctured the mark/s of the Toledo guild, instead of their own.
By marks, for the case, the interpretation is related with the smith personal punzones, those often inherited from their ancestors, and not symbols, esoteric or not, like half moons, anchors, ranks (espadero de rey) and other decoration motifs. The reason i tend to assure that the presence of those punzones on blades being inferior to faked smiths names, other than the (supposed) reason above is that, while a name of a famous smith written on the blade is something immediately noticed, ringing a bell to potencial customers, whereas the punzon, being of diminute dimensions, hidden behind the cup bowl and somehow an encripted motif, means little to such customers. In other words lacking marketing appeal.
The 'nationalizing' of names, like Heinrick Koll becoming Enrique Coll, is also a marketing operation ... but not only. Since early times that such procedure takes place; making it easy for locals to spell and pronounce a foreigner name. We usually had, for example, Flemish bombarders aboard ships and German cannon smelters in Lisbon arsenals during the discoveries period, as well as Biscays (even Jews) working in local armour workshops, having their names simplified.


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On continuing research through my resources regarding mostly rapiers, but in the case of markings and names, I must note that I have found considerable support for your contention of the use of names on blades.
In most cases it was as you suggest of course not meant as forgery, but to herald the quality of the blade.
While I found numerous cases of spurious punzones used, I believe there was distinctly a pronounced use of names as you note, in fact more so than I had realized.
You also well note the 'simplification' of names in spellings and context of language, which was another case of names used in reference to quality .

It is always interesting when conflicting views lead to gainful discussion, where the process brings valuable conclusions and learning to the fore.
Thank you.