Katzbalger - request for assistance in identifying blade mark

fernando · 5th July 2021, 08:35 PM

A bit of a silly question, df ...
The way your images were posted, the blade is facing down, so we have to invert the position of the cross and orb engraving to have it in the right position, right ?
What about the inlaid smith's mark; is it in the right position or should also be inverted ?
We would have that either the mark in Victrix's post #7 is more towards your case or perhaps a possible equivalence is seen in a sword illustrated in Armi Bianche Italiane.

.

df1967 · 5th July 2021, 09:01 PM

Wau thanks, this seems to be the mark, in the same position also as on your picture.Do you know what this Italian book is saying over this smith mark? Unbelievable what knowledge is on this website!!!

df1967 · 5th July 2021, 09:05 PM

Maybe this pic is better

fernando · 6th July 2021, 03:37 PM

Unfortunately my copy of this book doesn't have the the section with the marks index. It was a fellow forumite that sent me the scan (or photos) of such pages, some of them taken in a poor conditin, like the present one. Perhaps some member with te complete book will scan this page and sow it in a more clear condition ... Philip ?

.
I doubt that the text goes into detailed info on the smith or his mark, anyhow; maybe only the name given to this type of symbol.

.

Lee · 6th July 2021, 05:47 PM

Scan of text from Armi Bianche Italiane, p. 354:

fernando · 6th July 2021, 06:16 PM

Thank you Lee,
As i suspected, there is no mentioning of the smith, or of the symbol, except that the blade is 'marked in the middle' (marcata al medio); my interpretation subject to correction, of course.

Victrix · 6th July 2021, 07:17 PM

I’m not an Italian speaker but understand the sword is believed to have belonged to Gian Giacomo Trivulzio (https://military.wikia.org/wiki/Gian_Giacomo_Trivulzio) and here is a photo of the sword in its entirety. Not sure what conclusions we can draw from that concerning the katzbalger under discussion.

Philip · 7th July 2021, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Unfortunately my copy of this book doesn't have the the section with the marks index. It was a fellow forumite that sent me the scan (or photos) of such pages, some of them taken in a poor conditin, like the present one. Perhaps some member with te complete book will scan this page and sow it in a more clear condition ... Philip ?

.
I doubt that the text goes into detailed info on the smith or his mark, anyhow; maybe only the name given to this type of symbol.

.

Sorry, Nando, my copy of [IArmi Bianche Italiane[/I] is an edition printed without the marks section, too! Same editor, I guess you and I have the economy version

fernando · 7th July 2021, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip

Sorry, Nando, my copy of [IArmi Bianche Italiane[/I] is an edition printed without the marks section, too! Same editor, I guess you and I have the economy version

So we stand together Filipe ... or we would; my copy was a gift; can not complain

.

cornelistromp · 8th July 2021, 10:19 AM

The castle tower mark, with 3 or 4 points, often seen on wide Italian blades from the end of the 15th century, are all punched into the blade and without latten, as far as I know.
The mark of the sword under discussion is chisseled and finished with a latten inlay. This in combination with the orb and cross does not indicate an Italian origin.I would look more towards Solingen or else.

best,
jasper

5th July 2021, 08:35 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	A bit of a silly question, df ... The way your images were posted, the blade is facing down, so we have to invert the position of the cross and orb engraving to have it in the right position, right ? What about the inlaid smith's mark; is it in the right position or should also be inverted ? We would have that either the mark in Victrix's post #7 is more towards your case or perhaps a possible equivalence is seen in a sword illustrated in Armi Bianche Italiane. . Attached Images

5th July 2021, 09:01 PM	#2
df1967 Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Germany Posts: 51	Wau thanks, this seems to be the mark, in the same position also as on your picture.Do you know what this Italian book is saying over this smith mark? Unbelievable what knowledge is on this website!!! Attached Images

5th July 2021, 09:05 PM	#3
df1967 Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Germany Posts: 51	Maybe this pic is better Attached Images

6th July 2021, 03:37 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Unfortunately my copy of this book doesn't have the the section with the marks index. It was a fellow forumite that sent me the scan (or photos) of such pages, some of them taken in a poor conditin, like the present one. Perhaps some member with te complete book will scan this page and sow it in a more clear condition ... Philip ? . I doubt that the text goes into detailed info on the smith or his mark, anyhow; maybe only the name given to this type of symbol. . Attached Images

6th July 2021, 05:47 PM	#5
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 980	Scan of text from Armi Bianche Italiane, p. 354: Attached Images

6th July 2021, 06:16 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you Lee, As i suspected, there is no mentioning of the smith, or of the symbol, except that the blade is 'marked in the middle' (marcata al medio); my interpretation subject to correction, of course.

6th July 2021, 07:17 PM	#7
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 765	I’m not an Italian speaker but understand the sword is believed to have belonged to Gian Giacomo Trivulzio (https://military.wikia.org/wiki/Gian_Giacomo_Trivulzio) and here is a photo of the sword in its entirety. Not sure what conclusions we can draw from that concerning the katzbalger under discussion. Attached Images

8th July 2021, 10:19 AM	#10
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,064	The castle tower mark, with 3 or 4 points, often seen on wide Italian blades from the end of the 15th century, are all punched into the blade and without latten, as far as I know. The mark of the sword under discussion is chisseled and finished with a latten inlay. This in combination with the orb and cross does not indicate an Italian origin.I would look more towards Solingen or else. best, jasper Attached Images Last edited by cornelistromp; 8th July 2021 at 12:01 PM.