Katzbalger - request for assistance in identifying blade mark

[Victrix]

I’m not an Italian speaker but understand the sword is believed to have belonged to Gian Giacomo Trivulzio (https://military.wikia.org/wiki/Gian_Giacomo_Trivulzio) and here is a photo of the sword in its entirety. Not sure what conclusions we can draw from that concerning the katzbalger under discussion.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Victrix

I’m not an Italian speaker but understand the sword is believed to have belonged to Gian Giacomo Trivulzio (https://military.wikia.org/wiki/Gian_Giacomo_Trivulzio) and here is a photo of the sword in its entirety. Not sure what conclusions we can draw from that concerning the katzbalger under discussion.

You are correct; as per post 20# the caption in the book refers that the sword probably (probabilmente) belonged to Gian Giacomo Trivulzio, Marshal of France. It also mentions that the sword was decorated by Ercole dei Fedeli (circa 1499) a famous Italian (Jewish) goldsmith and master sword engraver. I gather that the inlaid mark would be that of the sword smith (forgerer) and not of Fedeli.
... But i would not draw conclusions that such mark ought to be the same as in the katzbalger; as i said, only a possible equivalence ... for what is worth .



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[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

You are correct; as per post 20# the caption in the book refers that the sword probably (probabilmente) belonged to Gian Giacomo Trivulzio, Marshal of France. It also mentions that the sword was decorated by Ercole dei Fedeli (circa 1499) a famous Italian (Jewish) goldsmith and master sword engraver. I gather that the inlaid mark would be that of the sword smith (forgerer) and not of Fedeli.
... But i would not draw conclusions that such mark ought to be the same as in the katzbalger; as i said, only a possible equivalence ... for what is worth .



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This is a most important entry into this discussion, thank you Fernando for the excerpts from "Armi Bianchi Italiene" (Boccia & Coelho, 1980) which clearly depicts the marking on this amazing sword, and thank you Lee for the copy of the page which adds the detail.

It would seem this mark was likely in use before the 1499 date noted by the attribution to this figure in accord. This would suggest that the mark was in use prior to that date, and of course likely remained in use after for some time. I believe that the mark would have been added along with the engraved decoration by the artist, but would be to the forger of the blade.
Blades were typically decorated by artisans who worked for the various masters and shops, which might have had several bladesmiths.

Normally the mark would be to the shop or forge, not necessarily to one maker (the Ferrara's worked at the forge of another master, which was why the paucity of signed examples by them), or at least this has been my understanding.

That blades so marked would be sent to Germany for mounting would not be surprising, just as they were to other centers in the Italian regions where they were forged.

[Reventlov]

There is a cinquedea in the Wallace Collection with a very similar marking. A number of such weapons have also been attributed to Ercole dei Fideli, though not this one in particular.

Cinquedeas are a characteristically Italian style, so everything seems consistent with the mark being the sign of some Italian bladesmith, some of whose products were embellished by other artisans like Fideli, or exported from the country.

https://wallacelive.wallacecollectio...ype=detailView

[df1967]

The possibility that Italian blades came to Germany in this times makes absolutely sense, as vice verse. See this book from the museum in Berlin, 2 German Katzbalger, both blades north Italy…only the Bidenhänder is completely German made. So the trading around 1500 worked even without the European Union…

[df1967]

Two examples of Katzbalger with Italian blades…

[df1967]

Blades north Italy