Please help witha European blade in a Japanese tachi mount

Jim McDougall · 26th June 2021, 10:53 PM

Thank you very much Peter for the kind words.
I felt pretty strongly about this being a British M1796 blade, and after many years of study and handling of them, I have learned of the considerable cases of variation due to at first, the fact that the blade making industry was in its first stages. This led invariably to cases of somewhat subtle variation, then as the form continued (as I mentioned in India mostly) well through the 19th c. of course even more variation was present but basically the same type fuller.

I know of your extensive background in Japan, so I would not presume to advance too heavily into the dynamics of the 19th c. and the westernization of the country in the late Edo period into the Meiji.
In what led to the Satsuma Rebellion, and the abolishing of the Samurai, thus presenting the opportunity for all men to wear a sword (as you suggest), this may well be an example of an ersatz weapon made from a repurposed British blade.

Other earlier contact with the west had produced the western fascination with Oriental styling and motif. This became prevalent in early to mid 18th century smallswords and court swords with Chinese motif known as Tonquinese and Chinoiserie. Mostly this of course had to do with the Dutch and English East India Companies in Peking and Tonkin (Vietnam), however though technically closed, there was activity into Japan.
The styling on this scabbard reminds me of some of the motif on these earlier swords decorated in Europe in this manner.

While obviously this sword does not reflect the high artistry of the long tradition of Japanese sword makers, it does suggest someone desiring a sword in the known manner put together with the methods of that work notably imitated.
Certainly this seems to plausibly be a British blade which has come into the Japanese sphere in the third quarter of 19thc.to turn of century during these times of change, and well worthy of publication.

All very best,
Jim

Philip · 27th June 2021, 05:59 AM

Before we get further along into the weeds, could you please post some images of the sword completely disassembled -- hilt off, showing the entirety of the tang, and the pommel and ferrule taken off the grip to show the jointing on the respective components?

I have in my reference library an article on a European blade mounted as a long wakizashi in a Danish museum, and mention of similar blade converted into a tanto now in the RAM, but let's see the "innards" of the subject of this thread before making any additional inquiry.

Bryce · 27th June 2021, 10:01 PM

G'day Peter,
As well as what the unmounted blade looks like, the sori measurement would also be useful. I measured what the sori of a typical 1796 LC sabre would be if cut down to 71.5cm and it is about 24mm. It looks to me like your blade is less curved than a 1796. Below are some photos showing the relevant parts of an average 1796. As Jim has mentioned there was a degree of variation between examples, but I don't think your's is a British 1796 or a German blucher. The fuller of your blade seems a little rough for a European sword of this period.
Cheers,
Bryce

pbleed · 28th June 2021, 09:26 PM

I remain grateful for the help and interest of this community. The growth of expert communities within – and on – internet communities truly has changed the rate and quality of understanding in collectors’ communities.
The discussion of potential candidates for the original blade that found its way into these mounts has been interesting. The British Model of 1796 would probably be how to bet. But anything could have found its way to an odd corner of early 19th century Japan - so I remain an agnostic or at least uncertain. There are those German Bluchers. And weren’t there early 19th century Dutch blades with wide fullers? The Dutch were still getting into Japan – legally – at that time.
Philip says that he will make sense of all this if I supply views of the disassembled sword. This sword has what the Japanese call a “Dashi-zame” or bare ray-skin. That means the kashira (the pommel) is fixed. I have removed the TSUBA to show the tang. It is abused, but note (!) that the washers (the seppa) were NOT recycled fittings from another Japanese style blade. They are NEW for this sword.
And to reveal a secret that I was not ready to share, in the attached picture I slipped the band in the middle of the handle back. It was loose enough to make that easy, but look what it covered – a Cross. That makes it tempting to speculate that the carrier of this sword was either a Christian or an ally of one of the southern leaders who had lined with Catholic missionaries. Or maybe he was just flashing a bunch of exotic symbols.
In any case this sword makes sense as something from the early to mid 19th Century. It was NOT something that would have been ginned up for the warfare that broke out AFTER the Meiji Restoration.

Philip · 29th June 2021, 05:41 AM

This somewhat earlier example of what we're discussing has been published thanks to Per Terje Norheim in "A Euro-Japanese Sword in the National Museum in Copenhagen", Vaabenhistorisker Aarboger Vol. XVI (1970), pp 163-73. This most unusual saber (inv. no. Ab.56NMK) , ex-King Frederik VII Collection, was acquired by the Museum in 1864, its previous history is unknown.

The 79.3 cm blade dates from the second half of the 17th cent., probably Solingen or Maastricht manufacture, with etched figures of horsemen further embellished with (badly spelled) Latin inscriptions in a style seen on any number of military swords of the era from northern and eastern Europe. It is fullered the entire length and has a spear-tip profile with back-edge at the point. From the texture of the steel in the photograph, the tang appears to have been neatly lengthened with an extension probably at the time of remounting, with a hole drilled in the proper position for a mekugi for hilt attachment in the Japanese fashion.

The blade has had a habaki fitted to it, and the workmanship overall is very competent throughout, although the tsuba is from another sword (tang aperture widened to accommodate this blade) and the fucci and kashira are not en suite. Mr Norheim notes in his article that the scabbard seems specifically made to fit the fairly wide blade.

Determining the period which lapsed between manufacture of blade and its installation on the present fittings is difficult. The amount of corrosion and wear (parts of the etching are effaced as a result) suggest that the blade wasn't brand new when it entered the Japanese sword-fitter's shop. The author also states that we can only speculate as to the reason the blade was so mounted.

Philip · 29th June 2021, 05:53 AM

The backstory on the piece cited in Peter's post #7...

In the same article referenced in my previous post is mentioned and illustrated this tanto. At the time of writing, it was in a British private collection and had been exhibited at a sword club show in that country. It's now in the Royal Armouries Museum, per the URL in post #7on this thread. The following remarks are based on Mr Norheim's description of it, in his comparison with the aforementioned sword.

This example is a bit more "high class" than the preceding; its mountings are much higher quality and bear the Matsuda (a daimyo family) crest.

The blade has also undergone a lot more in the way of "surgery" to reach its present state. It is a cut-down sword blade (analogous to European broadsword and riding-sword blades recycled into hooded cattars in Tanjore and other parts of South India). It was, according to the article, re-tanged in Japanese manner. Also re-tipped, re-tempered and polished à la japonnaise with parts of its original inscription remaining: " P.....SS Kejser [a Dutch rendition of Kaiser?] Anno... on one side, and on the other, " Me fecit Solingen 163 [3 or 5, numeral partially effaced].

27th June 2021, 10:01 PM	#3
Bryce Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: North Queensland, Australia Posts: 189	G'day Peter, As well as what the unmounted blade looks like, the sori measurement would also be useful. I measured what the sori of a typical 1796 LC sabre would be if cut down to 71.5cm and it is about 24mm. It looks to me like your blade is less curved than a 1796. Below are some photos showing the relevant parts of an average 1796. As Jim has mentioned there was a degree of variation between examples, but I don't think your's is a British 1796 or a German blucher. The fuller of your blade seems a little rough for a European sword of this period. Cheers, Bryce Attached Images

28th June 2021, 09:26 PM	#4
pbleed Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Little Rock, Arkansas Posts: 88	I remain grateful for the help and interest of this community. The growth of expert communities within – and on – internet communities truly has changed the rate and quality of understanding in collectors’ communities. The discussion of potential candidates for the original blade that found its way into these mounts has been interesting. The British Model of 1796 would probably be how to bet. But anything could have found its way to an odd corner of early 19th century Japan - so I remain an agnostic or at least uncertain. There are those German Bluchers. And weren’t there early 19th century Dutch blades with wide fullers? The Dutch were still getting into Japan – legally – at that time. Philip says that he will make sense of all this if I supply views of the disassembled sword. This sword has what the Japanese call a “Dashi-zame” or bare ray-skin. That means the kashira (the pommel) is fixed. I have removed the TSUBA to show the tang. It is abused, but note (!) that the washers (the seppa) were NOT recycled fittings from another Japanese style blade. They are NEW for this sword. And to reveal a secret that I was not ready to share, in the attached picture I slipped the band in the middle of the handle back. It was loose enough to make that easy, but look what it covered – a Cross. That makes it tempting to speculate that the carrier of this sword was either a Christian or an ally of one of the southern leaders who had lined with Catholic missionaries. Or maybe he was just flashing a bunch of exotic symbols. In any case this sword makes sense as something from the early to mid 19th Century. It was NOT something that would have been ginned up for the warfare that broke out AFTER the Meiji Restoration. Attached Images

29th June 2021, 05:41 AM	#5
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	A European blade remounted as a katana This somewhat earlier example of what we're discussing has been published thanks to Per Terje Norheim in "A Euro-Japanese Sword in the National Museum in Copenhagen", Vaabenhistorisker Aarboger Vol. XVI (1970), pp 163-73. This most unusual saber (inv. no. Ab.56NMK) , ex-King Frederik VII Collection, was acquired by the Museum in 1864, its previous history is unknown. The 79.3 cm blade dates from the second half of the 17th cent., probably Solingen or Maastricht manufacture, with etched figures of horsemen further embellished with (badly spelled) Latin inscriptions in a style seen on any number of military swords of the era from northern and eastern Europe. It is fullered the entire length and has a spear-tip profile with back-edge at the point. From the texture of the steel in the photograph, the tang appears to have been neatly lengthened with an extension probably at the time of remounting, with a hole drilled in the proper position for a mekugi for hilt attachment in the Japanese fashion. The blade has had a habaki fitted to it, and the workmanship overall is very competent throughout, although the tsuba is from another sword (tang aperture widened to accommodate this blade) and the fucci and kashira are not en suite. Mr Norheim notes in his article that the scabbard seems specifically made to fit the fairly wide blade. Determining the period which lapsed between manufacture of blade and its installation on the present fittings is difficult. The amount of corrosion and wear (parts of the etching are effaced as a result) suggest that the blade wasn't brand new when it entered the Japanese sword-fitter's shop. The author also states that we can only speculate as to the reason the blade was so mounted. Attached Images

29th June 2021, 05:53 AM	#6
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	And here's something similar... The backstory on the piece cited in Peter's post #7... In the same article referenced in my previous post is mentioned and illustrated this tanto. At the time of writing, it was in a British private collection and had been exhibited at a sword club show in that country. It's now in the Royal Armouries Museum, per the URL in post #7on this thread. The following remarks are based on Mr Norheim's description of it, in his comparison with the aforementioned sword. This example is a bit more "high class" than the preceding; its mountings are much higher quality and bear the Matsuda (a daimyo family) crest. The blade has also undergone a lot more in the way of "surgery" to reach its present state. It is a cut-down sword blade (analogous to European broadsword and riding-sword blades recycled into hooded cattars in Tanjore and other parts of South India). It was, according to the article, re-tanged in Japanese manner. Also re-tipped, re-tempered and polished à la japonnaise with parts of its original inscription remaining: " P.....SS Kejser [a Dutch rendition of Kaiser?] Anno... on one side, and on the other, " Me fecit Solingen 163 [3 or 5, numeral partially effaced]. Attached Images

26th June 2021, 10:53 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,284	Thank you very much Peter for the kind words. I felt pretty strongly about this being a British M1796 blade, and after many years of study and handling of them, I have learned of the considerable cases of variation due to at first, the fact that the blade making industry was in its first stages. This led invariably to cases of somewhat subtle variation, then as the form continued (as I mentioned in India mostly) well through the 19th c. of course even more variation was present but basically the same type fuller. I know of your extensive background in Japan, so I would not presume to advance too heavily into the dynamics of the 19th c. and the westernization of the country in the late Edo period into the Meiji. In what led to the Satsuma Rebellion, and the abolishing of the Samurai, thus presenting the opportunity for all men to wear a sword (as you suggest), this may well be an example of an ersatz weapon made from a repurposed British blade. Other earlier contact with the west had produced the western fascination with Oriental styling and motif. This became prevalent in early to mid 18th century smallswords and court swords with Chinese motif known as Tonquinese and Chinoiserie. Mostly this of course had to do with the Dutch and English East India Companies in Peking and Tonkin (Vietnam), however though technically closed, there was activity into Japan. The styling on this scabbard reminds me of some of the motif on these earlier swords decorated in Europe in this manner. While obviously this sword does not reflect the high artistry of the long tradition of Japanese sword makers, it does suggest someone desiring a sword in the known manner put together with the methods of that work notably imitated. Certainly this seems to plausibly be a British blade which has come into the Japanese sphere in the third quarter of 19thc.to turn of century during these times of change, and well worthy of publication. All very best, Jim

27th June 2021, 05:59 AM	#2
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Before we get further along into the weeds, could you please post some images of the sword completely disassembled -- hilt off, showing the entirety of the tang, and the pommel and ferrule taken off the grip to show the jointing on the respective components? I have in my reference library an article on a European blade mounted as a long wakizashi in a Danish museum, and mention of similar blade converted into a tanto now in the RAM, but let's see the "innards" of the subject of this thread before making any additional inquiry.