Please help witha European blade in a Japanese tachi mount

[Bryce]

G'day Peter,
At first glance I don't think this was a British 1796 pattern light cavalry sabre (Sorry Jim). The blade fuller and ricasso don't look right and neither do the scabbard bands. 1796's had a rat's tail tang. What sort of tang does this blade have? I will keep looking for what else it may be.
Cheers,
Bryce

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Bryce

G'day Peter,
At first glance I don't think this was a British 1796 pattern light cavalry sabre (Sorry Jim). The blade fuller and ricasso don't look right and neither do the scabbard bands. 1796's had a rat's tail tang. What sort of tang does this blade have? I will keep looking for what else it may be.
Cheers,
Bryce

No problem Bryce, I was looking forward to you coming in!
By the numbers, you are right, there do seem to be certain disparities, but the only alternative ostensibly was the Prussian 'Blucher sabel' 1811. These were for all intents and purposes nearly identical to the 1796, but in a short time the blades seem to have gotten lighter and so on.

There is a great deal of reprofiling on this blade, so its hard to say, but in looking again, the spine over the fuller does seem unusual. I think what always throws me off is that the M1796 blades were so in favor in India, that the form essentially remained produced for native cavalry units well through the 19th century. With different makers, and changes in production runs, I believe that this could still be a 'version' of the 1796 under British auspices for the 'Raj'.
This still fits the situational context I had described with India. This form blade remained in use through the 19th c., was profoundly exported, as well as copied i.e. the Blucher sabel......which did not find those export circumstances.

Those are my thoughts, but as British swords are your specialized field, naturally I look forward to your further ideas and findings.

All the best
Jim

[David R]

Frankly I get a bit twitchy when I see these shotgun jobs. There are Western blades in Japanese style mounts, but the conversion is absolute, a habaki is fitted, a Japanese style tang created by moving the shoulders of the blade higher, and on occasion re-tempering in the Japanese manner.
I view this one with great suspicion, and think it more likely a joining of bits from a collectors spares pile. Sorry!

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by David R

Frankly I get a bit twitchy when I see these shotgun jobs. There are Western blades in Japanese style mounts, but the conversion is absolute, a habaki is fitted, a Japanese style tang created by moving the shoulders of the blade higher, and on occasion re-tempering in the Japanese manner.
I view this one with great suspicion, and think it more likely a joining of bits from a collectors spares pile. Sorry!

Well observed David. I must admit that this distinct possibility is always the very potential 'elephant in the room' that looms. However the eternal optimist in me always tries to find reasonable solutions to these anomalies, and I try to forget that 'there be very ugly charlatans out there' in our community.

The historian in me will try to find viable explanations for odd pairings, based on the fact that often in native or colonial contexts, ersatz weapons were fashioned from components from many circumstances and repurposed as required.

Here is an example of just such an 'unholy' pairing (I call it my 'Frankenstein' espada ancha) which is created from an three bar guard from uncertain military saber donor; the hilt of an equally undetermined briquet, and a cut down 18th c. Spanish dragoon blade. These blades, made in Solingen for export to the Spanish colonies c. 1750s are often termed 'Spanish motto' blades or simply Spanish dragoon blades. There were notable volumes of these blades sent to New Spain over many years, and these ended up mounted in many sabers with the three bar hilts.

In the rural, remote frontier regions by the 19th century the true espada anchas remained in use by horsemen mostly as utility weapons, but later, the frontier regions began being patrolled by groups of horsemen in a militia/police context known as 'rurales'. While of course armed with firearms, they typically augmented their 'uniform' with the traditional wearing of a sword. There were few armorers or resources in these remote frontier towns, but there was remarkable innovation in the repurposing of just about everything.

That is my 'optimistic' explanation for 'many' of these odd combinations, but the 'truth' we will only know with the dismantling of a weapon (which I personally am reticent to do) and some advanced forensic examination.
In my sword, I am satisfied with the corroborative age on the peen, and patination visible among the components. There is a '3' on the guard suggesting its one time use probably in a Mexican cavalry unit.
As a collectible weapon, it is a monstrosity, but for a historian such as myself, one imagines what separate adventures each of these now grouped components had.

The guard is most likely from a British M1821 light cavalry saber. The Mexican army was virtually entirely supplied with surplus British arms which were sold to them in the 1820s. While this was mostly muskets and various firearms, numbers of edged weapons of course found inclusion. In a museum here in Texas there is a M1821 saber found on the field at San Jacinto if I recall.

[pbleed]

Earlier this morning I prepared a response to the postings that were made to my inquiry about a European blade in a Japanese mount. I can assure you that I was witty and expressed deep gratitude to this community - - and then I managed to lose the file. Grrr!
The responses were very useful, tho and I want to acknowledge them. I will try to be more careful this time, but I assure you that my first draft was witty and pithy! I appreciate the reactions.
Jim’s response was – as usual - expert and useful. It was kind of in line with what I was thinking, but I have never had much contact with the 1796 British sabers and the ones I remember looking at all have those darn langets that hide the fullers, making it hard to know what they actually look like.
Bryce’s comments, of course, were comforting in that regard.
And I agree with David’s “twitchiness” about this blade. I am not ready to sell this sword, but I would like to present it in the collectors’ literature and I sure don’t want to publish a “fake.” We have all seen reworks and modifications, but I do NOT think that this is something that Bubba whipped up in his garage. I think it is “Japanese work.”
1. To be sure, this sword does NOT reflect the highest level of Japanese artistry. That is to be seen in the wonderful blade in the Leeds collection that Geraint reminded me of.
https://collections.royalarmouries.o...ect-54908.html
That sword shows us, however, that the Japanese were willing to treat foreign blades.
2. In addition to the overall “look”, two aspects of this tachi seem clearly “Japanese” to me. I think the polish really looks like a Japanese treatment, especially with the addition of a false “hamon.” I am also convinced that the clouds with dragon embellishments on the scabbard is ‘Japanese.’
3. There was, as well, a great fad in Japan during the late middle Edo period when wealthy fops like to get dressed up in foreign gear. I think this is the kind of thing that a wealthy guy could enjoy wearing when he was “on the town.”
Thanks for your help!
Peter

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you very much Peter for the kind words.
I felt pretty strongly about this being a British M1796 blade, and after many years of study and handling of them, I have learned of the considerable cases of variation due to at first, the fact that the blade making industry was in its first stages. This led invariably to cases of somewhat subtle variation, then as the form continued (as I mentioned in India mostly) well through the 19th c. of course even more variation was present but basically the same type fuller.

I know of your extensive background in Japan, so I would not presume to advance too heavily into the dynamics of the 19th c. and the westernization of the country in the late Edo period into the Meiji.
In what led to the Satsuma Rebellion, and the abolishing of the Samurai, thus presenting the opportunity for all men to wear a sword (as you suggest), this may well be an example of an ersatz weapon made from a repurposed British blade.

Other earlier contact with the west had produced the western fascination with Oriental styling and motif. This became prevalent in early to mid 18th century smallswords and court swords with Chinese motif known as Tonquinese and Chinoiserie. Mostly this of course had to do with the Dutch and English East India Companies in Peking and Tonkin (Vietnam), however though technically closed, there was activity into Japan.
The styling on this scabbard reminds me of some of the motif on these earlier swords decorated in Europe in this manner.

While obviously this sword does not reflect the high artistry of the long tradition of Japanese sword makers, it does suggest someone desiring a sword in the known manner put together with the methods of that work notably imitated.
Certainly this seems to plausibly be a British blade which has come into the Japanese sphere in the third quarter of 19thc.to turn of century during these times of change, and well worthy of publication.

All very best,
Jim

[Philip]

Before we get further along into the weeds, could you please post some images of the sword completely disassembled -- hilt off, showing the entirety of the tang, and the pommel and ferrule taken off the grip to show the jointing on the respective components?

I have in my reference library an article on a European blade mounted as a long wakizashi in a Danish museum, and mention of similar blade converted into a tanto now in the RAM, but let's see the "innards" of the subject of this thread before making any additional inquiry.

[Philip]

Originally Posted by pbleed

2. In addition to the overall “look”, two aspects of this tachi seem clearly “Japanese” to me. I think the polish really looks like a Japanese treatment, especially with the addition of a false “hamon.” I am also convinced that the clouds with dragon embellishments on the scabbard is ‘Japanese.’
3. There was, as well, a great fad in Japan during the late middle Edo period when wealthy fops like to get dressed up in foreign gear. I think this is the kind of thing that a wealthy guy could enjoy wearing when he was “on the town.”
Thanks for your help!
Peter

Hi, Peter

Your comments have prompted me to look at this sword yet again, and to be frank, the more I see of it the less inclined I am to think that this is a Japanese conversion. Most apparent is the workmanship, or rather the lack therof. The preceding two examples from museum collections show how carefully the remounts were done in a Japanese context. Both those pieces have habakis , features which are hallmarks of Japanese blades. A good kessho polish would create a much more convincing hamon. (and wouldn't a Japanese style polish deserve a proper scabbard and a habaki in order to keep the finish from getting rubbed and scraped?).

Stylistically, I see your point about a Japanese aesthetic. But I've seen similar cloud and dragon motifs on Korean scabbards as well, and there is a Joseon-era sword in the Met that has loose-ring suspension fittings just like this one. I attach an image of a Korean byeolun-geom which has the au naturel rayskin without silk wrapping on the hilt; indeed, unwrapped grips are far more prevalent on Korean swords than on Japanese. Also, the deep rounded pommel on your sword is practically identical to that on a Korean ferrule/pommel set I used to have, and the boar eye motif on same mirrors that on your sword's guard, whose engraved floral deco are also quite similar to what I've seen on other Korean mountings.

The overall build quality of your sword is also more in keeping with that of the munition-grade arms made late in Korea's dynastic history.

Lastly, I have seen pics of swords on display in military museums in Korea, and semi-Western styles were adopted towards the end of the royal period in the 19th cent.

[Jim McDougall]

In keeping with Philips resoundingly astute suggestion of a Korean attribution here with this fascinating saber, I wanted to add some notes that I have come up with which might be salient in this consideration.

Until the arrival of Perry in 1854, Japan was indeed isolated as far as trade etc. with the world, however, the single inroad was the Dutch (former VOC) entrepot at Dejima Island (off coast of Nagasaki). Here trade with the west transpired into the East Indies networks.
This is a possible entry for a blade of German form of these '1796' types and as noted with Solingen or Dutch production, into possible Japanese context.

As Great Britain was of course quite colonially present in Hong Kong and other Chinese locations near mid century of course, there are possibilities for such British blades to have filtered into these same trade networks.
I would note here that I have seen (but no longer have images) of a complete M1796 British M1796 heavy cavalry sword with Chinese markings on the hilt, which was I believe among captured arms during the "Boxer Rebellion' (1900).

With this motif of clouds and dragons etc. on the scabbard, it seems that such decoration (in European favor with the Oriental styles I mentioned before used with these types of decoration) is seen on some Chinese weapons.

However, those styles of China seem like, as mentioned, may have made it into Korea as well.

I have a Korean 'peadao' (if I am correct on term) which as Philip has noted, would fall largely into the 'munitions' grade Korean arms made in mid 19thc possibly earlier. In this case, while the pommel cap and tsuba are quite simple, the grip is indeed wrapped and there is a habaki.
If I have understood correctly , after the Japanese take over in 1910, most Korean swords were destroyed.

I think there is a good case for this being a Korean use of this blade, whether British or German (I still feel it is British), and very likely c. mid century or slightly later. I think the cross on the reverse of the hilt is notably significant as well, considering the missionary circumstances in both China and Korea.