Dragons, Naga and Bakunawa...

BSMStar · 16th May 2006, 09:50 PM

Hi Fearn,

You are not one of the "enemy." And I cannot compete with a PhD.... I am a lowly Color Chemist.

Paradigms are our best friends and worst enemies; sometimes we get stuck in the “box.” There is a PhD Biologist that is currently looking for “Bigfoot,” although Bigfoot may not be the creature people think it is. Due to a personal experience (sighting), he is looking for evidence for Gigantopithecus, another animal that should not be around today, but may have surviving relatives that crossed over to North America.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

Why assume that the people who wrote "here be dragons" were describing real animals? They were just as good at making things up as we are. Fearn

I would agree, if the legends were localized to a region. A worldwide series of myths with many similarities... is a bit more difficult to discount as being simple imagination. For example, if you were to look at the earth creation myths from all of these areas, they would have little or nothing in common. Then examine their description of dragons; it becomes a bit uncanny to their similarities... unless someone is willing to change “known” history and say that all of these people were in communication with each other (Asia, Africa, India, Europe, Americas, etc.) and shared or spread a myth 1500 to 4000 years ago... there is a mystery worthy of investigation. How did it all happen?

We may never know the answer... and I my be chalk full of blue berry muffins! My real goal was to collect a few of thest stories. But, I guess not.

BTW, did you send it Overnite or Second Day?

fearn · 16th May 2006, 10:55 PM

I sent that non-existent sword by griffin-post. It's usually pretty quick, unless you have any iron in your house. In that case, they can't deliver....

As for "uncanny similarities" in dragon descriptions, you might want to research that, especially in European illustrations. There's fairly enormous diversity in what constitutes a "dragon," even in Europe. Just for comparison, Bigfoots are pretty near identical: I mean, they only vary from 6-10' in height, with 3-5 toes, depending on what part of the country they're from (three toes in Louisiana, five toes in the pacific northwest). Compared to dragons, they're a single species. I know, I know, they can be duplicated by pranksters in ape suits, and Why Big Fierce Animals Are Rare says that probably couldn't exist, but still....if dragons are real, then those ape dudes have gotta exist. Really.

What has this got to do with swords, I wonder?

Fearn

BSMStar · 17th May 2006, 08:40 PM

Hmmm. Griffin-post... I will have to check my Hogwart address (now you got me excited in anticipation).

Here is a hint, look at the "serpent" styles. Not one of my favorites though, but the shape does show up the most. Look at what St. George is slaying (Europe)... the feathered serpent of South America, the Nagas of Indonesia, Bakanawa (bent snake) of the Philippines, The Royal Dragons of China, keep looking and you will see them... Pick a continent and one of these will likely be staring back at you. We have just made a quick trip around the world. What are the odds all of these people (who supposedly) had no communication with each other, shared similar mythical creatures (I would not bet on those odds). But, as I said, I can be caulk full of blue berry muffins. Stories can change with each telling (oh yea, well my dragon flies... well my dragon breaths fire... well, to be honest, I was just a baby when the Dead Sea was sick so I don't remember, but the dragon was real scary I tell you). The real question is... were people seeing and identifying some anmimal as a dragon? Or, did dragons become a universal symbol in time forgotten? (And if so, how did it spread).

Remember, Gorillas were thought to be non-existent or mythical a one time. As far at that goes, the best minds thought the earth was flat. Paradigms can be our best friend and worst enemy. Albert Einstein once said "Imagination is more important than knowledge." He also said that “Insanity is to do the same thing over and over again, and to expect different results.” I believe he was suggesting to keep an open mind and to look at the world around us with “new eyes.” We should not get stuck in the same place everyday. It does not mean that we should just believe every tale that we hear… no, but we should truly investigate and see were the data leads us. Otherwise we would still be thinking that we can not travel any faster than 20 MPH, or it would kill us… or that we no longer need a Patent Office because everything that can be invented has been invented… and the Coelacanth died out 80 million years ago, so it cannot possibly exist today. These were yesterday’s paradigms. But honestly, I should not have to convince anyone of "open minded" science. By definition, science is not supposed to be biased.

The connection of dragons to swords is shown on the earlier supplied links, some of the dragons on swords are very stylized (you almost have to know it is a dragon) and some are easy to spot. They seem to be very important to many cultures! Personally, I like them all!

fearn · 18th May 2006, 12:48 AM

Hi B,

I'll be happy to continue this discussion via PMs, but since this is a sword site, I'll stop my end of the discussion with this.

For anyone else reading this, wikipedia has a useful little article on dragonshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon
This is useful in that it talks about names and symbolism for dragons in a number of societies.

A counter argument for the physical existence of dragons is the idea of "an instinct for dragons," being proposed by an anthropologist. The basic idea is that dragons incorporate aspects of the major predators on primates (including human ancestors): snakes, eagles, and leopards. Here's the wikipedia article.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Instinct_for_Dragons

Again, pm me if you want to talk about cryptozoology.

F

16th May 2006, 10:55 PM	#2
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	I sent that non-existent sword by griffin-post. It's usually pretty quick, unless you have any iron in your house. In that case, they can't deliver.... As for "uncanny similarities" in dragon descriptions, you might want to research that, especially in European illustrations. There's fairly enormous diversity in what constitutes a "dragon," even in Europe. Just for comparison, Bigfoots are pretty near identical: I mean, they only vary from 6-10' in height, with 3-5 toes, depending on what part of the country they're from (three toes in Louisiana, five toes in the pacific northwest). Compared to dragons, they're a single species. I know, I know, they can be duplicated by pranksters in ape suits, and Why Big Fierce Animals Are Rare says that probably couldn't exist, but still....if dragons are real, then those ape dudes have gotta exist. Really. What has this got to do with swords, I wonder? Fearn

17th May 2006, 08:40 PM	#3
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Hmmm. Griffin-post... I will have to check my Hogwart address (now you got me excited in anticipation). Here is a hint, look at the "serpent" styles. Not one of my favorites though, but the shape does show up the most. Look at what St. George is slaying (Europe)... the feathered serpent of South America, the Nagas of Indonesia, Bakanawa (bent snake) of the Philippines, The Royal Dragons of China, keep looking and you will see them... Pick a continent and one of these will likely be staring back at you. We have just made a quick trip around the world. What are the odds all of these people (who supposedly) had no communication with each other, shared similar mythical creatures (I would not bet on those odds). But, as I said, I can be caulk full of blue berry muffins. Stories can change with each telling (oh yea, well my dragon flies... well my dragon breaths fire... well, to be honest, I was just a baby when the Dead Sea was sick so I don't remember, but the dragon was real scary I tell you). The real question is... were people seeing and identifying some anmimal as a dragon? Or, did dragons become a universal symbol in time forgotten? (And if so, how did it spread). Remember, Gorillas were thought to be non-existent or mythical a one time. As far at that goes, the best minds thought the earth was flat. Paradigms can be our best friend and worst enemy. Albert Einstein once said "Imagination is more important than knowledge." He also said that “Insanity is to do the same thing over and over again, and to expect different results.” I believe he was suggesting to keep an open mind and to look at the world around us with “new eyes.” We should not get stuck in the same place everyday. It does not mean that we should just believe every tale that we hear… no, but we should truly investigate and see were the data leads us. Otherwise we would still be thinking that we can not travel any faster than 20 MPH, or it would kill us… or that we no longer need a Patent Office because everything that can be invented has been invented… and the Coelacanth died out 80 million years ago, so it cannot possibly exist today. These were yesterday’s paradigms. But honestly, I should not have to convince anyone of "open minded" science. By definition, science is not supposed to be biased. The connection of dragons to swords is shown on the earlier supplied links, some of the dragons on swords are very stylized (you almost have to know it is a dragon) and some are easy to spot. They seem to be very important to many cultures! Personally, I like them all!

18th May 2006, 12:48 AM	#4
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi B, I'll be happy to continue this discussion via PMs, but since this is a sword site, I'll stop my end of the discussion with this. For anyone else reading this, wikipedia has a useful little article on dragonshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon This is useful in that it talks about names and symbolism for dragons in a number of societies. A counter argument for the physical existence of dragons is the idea of "an instinct for dragons," being proposed by an anthropologist. The basic idea is that dragons incorporate aspects of the major predators on primates (including human ancestors): snakes, eagles, and leopards. Here's the wikipedia article. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Instinct_for_Dragons Again, pm me if you want to talk about cryptozoology. F