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Author	Topic: KRIS SWORD VARIATIONS
LabanTayo Senior Member	posted 04-06-2004 00:27 Here is a pic of the Tenegre from Rick. It is the second one down from the top. Zel and I think it was made for a person over 6 foot tall. Possibly an American. When I practice with it, it moves exactly the way it should. It does not feel cumbersome at all. And since this is the Kris Sword Variations post, I'll post this pic again. [This message has been edited by LabanTayo (edited 04-06-2004).] [This message has been edited by LabanTayo (edited 04-06-2004).] IP: Logged
zelbone Senior Member	posted 04-06-2004 01:12 Tom, I do see your point. However, to be a true "cockatoo" feature, there must be a beak and crest. I see the beak, but no crest. The back (where the crest of the kakatua would be) is rounded off on both the "knob" form and "diety" form. The beak and crest are the hallmarks of a kakatua hilt form. Even on the simplest barung hilts this is evident. On Visayan, hilts the crest is missing. On Panay, you don't see full blown kakatua hilts similar to Moro hilts. That's not a design motif there. I do see where you're coming from, though. Bakunawa and the Naga relation? Bakunawa is the old Visayan name for the Naga. The diety on the hilt of swords from Panay is a representation of Bakunawa. Before the arrival of the Muslims and later the Spanish, Panay was the center of the Sri Vijayan empire in the Philippines. With the arrival of the ten Borneo Datus to Panay, they brought along many of their beliefs including the belief of the Naga serpent. Even after Spanish rule and the conversion to Chritianity, many of the old traditions and beliefs still existed, usually in a subtle or hidden way or incorporated into the new beliefs. One of these traditions is that of Bakunawa and survives pretty much only in the hilt form of these swords. The only other tradition I've heard of with Bakunawa is the building of a tradtional home or Nipa hut (bahay kubo) on Panay. Building a house on Panay takes a cosmic dimension where it is a battle against the forces of darkness represented by Bakunawa. Consulting almanacs one can find the orientation of Bakunawa's head and body. For instance, in the first three months of the year, Bakunawa faces North with it's tail extending south. There is a four petal flower that sybolizes the death of Bakunawa. Each petal symbolizes each stilt or post planted for the home. The first petal, is the first post to strike at the serpent's head, the next two is to beat it to death, and the last petal is blessing of a new home and new beginning. This is the last post to go up. In fact, you sometimes see this four petal flower carved on Bakunawa hilts. As for my double edged Visayan daggers, they are not chisel ground. I do, however, have a Bakunawa hilt double-edged straight dagger that is triangular ground...where one side is completely flat and the other side is beveled on each edge. IP: Logged
roshan Member	posted 04-06-2004 05:35 This probably isnt the place to talk about it, but modern scholarship in the Philippines tends to say that the 10 datus story was simply a fabrication. IP: Logged
Rick EEWRS Staff	posted 04-06-2004 09:42 Second Tenegre Down Didn't I sell you that one Shelley ?? IP: Logged
tom hyle Senior Member	posted 04-06-2004 10:23 Some confusion here; you're still waiting on the one from me, with the simplified/stylized horn-hilt form. Thanks for the pics though. That is a particularly cockatooy Bakunawa. I guess that in way I don't buy in to the concept of the "true" cockatoo hilt. I've seen multiple Moro barongs and kris with no crest (per se; see below) that didn't appear to have ever had one (though granted it's an intrinsically fragile feature). Why is it of such great concern? Does an extended crest indicate something specific in Moro culture? Does anyone have photos of this bird? Can't it put its crest up and down? Is it a male feature? I think (this is the "see below") that the h hollowed-to raised ridge of the butt may be representative of the base of hte crest/crest muscle, and could conceptually include the crest "down" or just simplified for feild use, as the crest just tends to break off, anyway. Ie. It is a feature, that while once perhaps salient, and meaningful within the narrow confines of Moro culture, is sometimes absent from otherwise cockatoo Moro hilts, and is usually absent from the work of the neighboring people, again, otherwise closely related. It is therefore definitive, perhaps, of a certain variation in the form; the "full" cockatoo, if you will, or maybe even (with exceptions) the Moro cockatoo, but not of the southern PI cockatoo hilt form in general. [This message has been edited by tom hyle (edited 04-06-2004).] IP: Logged
LabanTayo Senior Member	posted 04-06-2004 11:02 Rick, sorry, yes that is the one I got from you. I posted it late last nite. Sleep deprivation is a wonderful thing. IP: Logged
tom hyle Senior Member	posted 04-06-2004 11:03 Now I did a bit of thinking, and there is another theory, whereunder Zelbone is half- right, and I'm completely wrong....That is (and I don't know if this is true) that there may be a number of very similar birds in S PI, and only one, the one with hte big crest, (I made up a smartypants name for this theoretical bird and everything, hee hee) was particularly totemic to the animists who were to become Moros. Or perhaps there's a more northern specie without/with smaller crest. So the natural world could be at play. But to tell you the truth, I think it's the basic impracticality of the crest on a handle. Small nub ones don't break easily or get in the way, but may have come to seem pointless, at least, as I said, to non-Moros. IP: Logged
LabanTayo Senior Member	posted 04-06-2004 16:14 To me, the plain knob type hilts on Panay swords looks like a snake/serpent with its head cocked ready to strike like a cobra would do. If Bakunawa is supposed to be a serpent, than that would make sense that the plain hilts would still resemble a snake/serpent. Rhinoceros Viper Cobra Vipers are common in S.E. Asia, and have big cheeks that house the jaw muscles and some Vipers have horns on the nose. Even though the Cobra is not a Viper, either snake would fit into the Bakunawa mythology in represenation. The snake headed hilts might be from Negros or Cebu. Maybe just a different perspective on Bakunawa. To me, it looks like a snake/serpent My 2 cents worth. [This message has been edited by LabanTayo (edited 04-06-2004).] IP: Logged
LabanTayo Senior Member	posted 04-06-2004 18:13 I hope that helps in the debate. But then again, maybe the plain hilt is not supposed to resemble anything at all. Its design is out of function, not representation. Who knows. [This message has been edited by LabanTayo (edited 04-06-2004).] IP: Logged
leaf Senior Member	posted 04-06-2004 23:44 I'm not trying to stir up a old debate but does anyone know who the fellows are in the first center pic: http://www.sabrizain.demon.co.uk/malaya/malays.htm Besides being Muslim (thier headgear) they sure look like Moro with all the kris, (what is the center sword?) could the author have made a mistake? Then in the same site is a picture of a keris "Taming Sari" http://www.sabrizain.demon.co.uk/malaya/melaka2.htm that sure looks to have simular dapor to the "Bali" kris that Vandoo posted and the one I posted with the stag hilt. Then since the question of proper terms has surfaced; most keris books seem to identify a keris as being up to 16", would it not be appropriate to refer to a "Malay or Bali" Kris? Also the one that Vandoo posted with the "dragon or flame" again raises the importance in kris making this symbol, any ideas? It also raises the question of sparing blades, did the Moro simply use old blades or were sometimes a heavy blade commisioned for this task? IP: Logged
DAHenkel Senior Member	posted 04-06-2004 23:58 My bet is that the Visayas hilts are representations of the Naga. Remember guys, this is Southeast Asia we're talking about. IP: Logged
leaf Senior Member	posted 04-07-2004 06:18 Hi Roshan, Hope you enjoy this forum as well an interest in PI swords. I've enjoyed my Manila visits and look foward to more. In regards to the Visayan hilts, can I suggest to be concidered, crocodiles and maybe Gods from Luzon. Certainly some are serpents but as with every thing else, maybe there is sort of a clash and a mix of things that when it is all over there is what serves funtionaly. And then again, it is what PI smiths seem to be governed by: Tradition or Ritual. The top one, I assume is from Luzon, its tang goes trough the hilt which is horn and is much older than the other swords, the third, I have assumed is a crocodile, only because I believed that they used to be abundant and sort of respected & feared. The Woodpecker I put in because of the "bird" head (cockatoo), and also, because it is one of the few swords I have any providence. The person I bought it from grew up in the PI (Luzon) to Missionary parents, thier sponser went to Mindanao & gave the woodpecker to his father around 1930. He later served in the US Navy and returned to the PI during WWII and served in Mindanao and the Visayas. He knew all about the Moro weapons, as well as that this sword was not suppose to come from there, but he also was quite sure it did. It is flat chissiled. The more I learn, the more I am confused. The 6th one is also suppose to be from around 1930. For you who are still reading, in the following pic, 1st has tang through the top of his head, the next 2 have it carved, but they came along much later. and besides these guys don't look like snakes ,they have noses & smiles. [This message has been edited by leaf (edited 04-07-2004).] [This message has been edited by leaf (edited 04-07-2004).] [This message has been edited by leaf (edited 04-07-2004).] IP: Logged
tom hyle Senior Member	posted 04-07-2004 08:36 Let me be clear. I am not contending that the Bakunawa hilt nor zoomorphic/dei-morphic hilts in general is/are an interpretation of the cockatoo. Of the last 2 picture postings, only the left-most of Laban Tayo's and not a one of Leaf's is a cockatoo. The woodpecker/pointy bird is a very interesting related thing. It is the rounded top (often but not always off-center in a particular way), the hollow-tapered top, the "ears", the beak (with it's top a continuation of hte head-top curve, and its bottom a sharp flat bevel, not Bakunawa's anthropomorphic jawline, nor a rounded continuation, as with, for instance, a gunong's knob hilt, which, BTW, is more cobra-esque. Sometimes it has an overbite.), the crest, and the pseudo-tang-band that mark the cockatoo form. Hilts marked primarily by some these features and no others, though they don't have all, are still clearly traditional interpretations of the cockatoo, or derivations thereof, the only reasonable alternative I can see being, as I've said, that there are subtle variations due to, basically, more than one type of cockatoo (bird). Some hilts will have some cockatoo features, but not be a cockatoo, like the Bakunawa with the peeling pseudo-tang-band; it's not cockatoo not because it lacks any particular cockatoo feature, but because it HAS the salient Bakunawa feature, (but it does show influence from the cockatoo style). As to that feature (the nose/horn). Naga means serpent or dragon. It is typically associated with ophidia, and particularly cobras, but in Oceanic SE Asia could other animals be considered atavistic of this force? I've mentioned the giant sea crocodile. In conection to this nose, let me mention another long wiggly sea-monster; the shark. BTW, Are there vipers with horns in oceanic SE Asia? Rhino viper is African, yes? is message has been edited by tom hyle (edited 04-07-2004).] [This message has been edited by tom hyle (edited 04-07-2004).] IP: Logged
LabanTayo Senior Member	posted 04-07-2004 09:17 Tom, yes the rhino viper is african. i was just using it to show a similarity to bakunawa. I think we now need to have a Visayan Deity Hilt conference . Leaf, th examples you show are beautiful. The one with the peened tang is from batangas. I have one almost exactly like it. I think if we find solid info on the myth of bakunawa and drawings/paintings of it, it might answer most of our questions. Could there be more than one deity/animal being represented in the hilts and we are trying to group them into one class? You have the typical Bakunawa hilt that you can't miss. Then there are the ones with more human or animal features. Could they be monkeys? Or some other monster in myth? [This message has been edited by LabanTayo (edited 04-07-2004).] IP: Logged
tom hyle Senior Member	posted 04-07-2004 11:22 And there may well be some snake that does look like that, though probably less extremely, in SE Asia; I think it is a feature of a snake that digs? Cobras, I believe, take over prey burrows. The British (perhaps archaic) common name for the king cobra is "hamadryad". Just an interesting mythic side-note. IP: Logged
tom hyle Senior Member	posted 04-07-2004 11:28 I think the raised comb/crest is a beligerant mating display, so it's understandable if it'symbolically important; I wonder if it has/had specific social meaning to be without, or if its simply a more Northern thing, or more Visayan and visayan influenced on Moro pieces. Were there Moro eunuchs? (A random thought) I note a vague resemblence of the crest and beak-extension to the flared end of Lumad sword hilts. IP: Logged
Rick EEWRS Staff	posted 04-07-2004 13:13 This may have no value at all .. I Googled Bakunawa and came up with this def. from a Philippine gaming site . get out the salt shakers : BAKUNAWA INTERMEDIATE GOD "Bakunawa is the feared god of darkness, hopelessness and despair. According to the Hiligaynon peoples, he takes the form of a huge greenish-black dragon. Once in a while, he awakes from his slumber at the bottom of the sea, attempting to wrestle cosmic supremacy from Bathala by eating his gold and silver disks. Bakunawa can raise the fury of nature, creating tornadoes, tidal waves, earthquakes and lightning storms with just a mere thought. He, however, because of his unorganized motivation, always loses to some other god or goddess, but he always waits for his time. The great dragon has a whole layer of eerie, calm, black waters in the Abyss, where he spends most of his time planning for his next attack on the other deities. " Does this sound familiar to anyone ? IP: Logged
LabanTayo Senior Member	posted 04-07-2004 13:25 Thats pretty much The myth behind Bakunawa. IP: Logged
tom hyle Senior Member	posted 04-07-2004 14:06 Yeah, and what's-his-name; another big snake, from across the world; Jormungandr, isn't that his name? IP: Logged
tom hyle Senior Member	posted 04-07-2004 14:22 On another subject that's been raised, two things that are over-rated are the weakness of the k(e)ris tang, which can break, but can typically take quite a bit including bending, before it does; and the amount of stress that accrues to the tang during slashing. With a properly executed slash (drawn or pushed), as opposed to a hack or chop, the majority of the stress goes along, not across the tang; it is the adhesive/joint that is strained. This same force-direction helps dampen vibration. Slashing is a wonderful thing. I might add that I've seen many old knives and some daggers with tangs very much like kris tangs; thin round and nail-like, Western and Eastern, including some butchering type, skinning, and bowie knives used for little but slashing, and only uncommonly a badly bent tang; very rarely a broken one. I believe that in the days of its use as a weapon (and I believe there were such days) the k(e)ris was used as a cut-and-thrust weapon, in varying degree, and in varying fighting styles, as it was made in varying blade and hilt styles. Can it hold up well to heavy battering against a hard target? No. Neither can many smallswords or hangers, frankly. It's sure not an axe. It all reminds me of an old warning inscription on some fine-edged knives (used by a variety of companies); "for slicing not chopping". IP: Logged
LOUIEBLADES Senior Member	posted 04-09-2004 19:26 Hi Guys I agree this is a kris thread so here are some of mine. Lew IP: Logged
tom hyle Senior Member	posted 04-09-2004 22:23 Might I inquire regarding hte crestedness of the pommels on the top and third from top pieces? IP: Logged
LOUIEBLADES Senior Member	posted 04-10-2004 03:25 quote: Originally posted by tom hyle: Might I inquire regarding hte crestedness of the pommels on the top and third from top pieces? Tom can you be more specific about the pommels. Lew IP: Logged
tom hyle Senior Member	posted 04-10-2004 12:03 Well, I think they're cockatoo hilts (though both are obscuringly shadowed, and at least one looks extrememely vague, but hten it's an exact type on which I have seen the crest....). Do they have the disputedly important rear crest? In the overarll shot they do not appear to; is there some small/subtle feature that could put claim to be such? Or a remainder or recarved area that shows missing ones? Hmmmm...when I post replies to this thread and go down to the little window of the original thread we get to refer to while we're on the reply page, that little window is a conspicuously old version of the thread. This has been occuring for at least about a day. Computer problems?...Also, when I post the reply, I get bounced, not to a new page, not to the page I came from, but to that same conspicuously out-of-date page I've already mentioned. [This message has been edited by tom hyle (edited 04-10-2004).] IP: Logged
tom hyle Senior Member	posted 04-10-2004 12:20 Fun with machines; they're always so consistent; that's the beauty of machines; this time it kicked me to page one, but of the updated version, which I think is what it's suposed to do. Nothing like telling Ma to make the other kid behave, I guess Now when that top style hilt is combined with a prominant rear crest, as I have seen, it bears somewhat of a rememblance to the Pacific rifle-butt clubs, which someone on htis forum told us are actually imitative of a flower. There is a collector's tale I'm just remembering that the cockatoo hilt is either "really" a flower, a flower too, or one or the other of these things in some schools of carving. I've never heard this lore from a Moro collector or culturally knowledgeable person, and have been viewing it rather dismissively, but this hilt triggers these thoughts, and it seems relevant on at least two levels (what's this particular hilt? and ambiguity, sometimes deliberate, in carving, then add plant symbolism in Asian/Pacific art...). The barong cockatoos with the wide more or less flat (keeled like a wooden chair seat) butts seem particularly non-animalistic........... IP: Logged
tom hyle Senior Member	posted 04-14-2004 22:20 Vandoo, about your heavy Moro kris with the naga/bakunawa inlad in silver (mine was "low" silver with a coppery sheen) I've just seen another; this one in an older hilt (I think), backwards, I might add, and with the dragon explicitly made as leaves and flowers, though chiselled, not inlaid. I saw it online (though not in an auction), identified as a headsman kris............ [This message has been edited by tom hyle (edited 04-14-2004).] IP: Logged
LOUIEBLADES Senior Member	posted 04-14-2004 22:58 Hi Tom Here is a close up of the hilts in question. Lew IP: Logged
VANDOO Senior Member	posted 04-16-2004 19:00 ONE POSSIBILITY FOR THE SO CALLED COCATOO HILT IS THAT IT IS A FORM SIMPLIFIED FROM THE ORIGINAL NATIVE FORMS TO ACCOMODATE THE BELIEFS OF ISLAM. BEFORE ISLAM CAME INTO THE AREA THE HANDLES OF THE VARIOUS TRIBES WERE PROBABLY VERY STYLIZED AND THE USE OF TOTEMIC, GOD FIGURES TO WARD OFF EVIL AND GIVE STRENGTH, PROTECTION OR TRIBAL IDENTIFICATION OR STATUS MAY HAVE BEEN REPRESENTED IN THE WEAPONS HANDLES AND SHEITH DECORATIONS. TAKE A VISIAN GOD HANDLE WITH THE BUG EYES AND HORN NOSE, REMOVE ALL THAT AND YOU WOULD HAVE BASICALLY WHAT WE SEE IN THE LAST TWO KERIS PICTURED. [This message has been edited by VANDOO (edited 04-16-2004).] IP: Logged
leaf Senior Member	posted 04-16-2004 19:25 Good point, with the Visayas, Christian religions would also have influence with the bolo. [This message has been edited by leaf (edited 04-16-2004).] IP: Logged

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