16th Century Style Broad Sword

Philip · 22nd July 2020, 02:13 AM

I tend to agree with both of you, my visual impression matches the points you raise.

Isn't that "bottleneck" profile of the grip more appropriate on the longer, "bastard" or hand-and-half hilts, and particularly those from the German lands?

The cross and orb symbol is typically German, 16th cent.

The fuller at the axis of the blade is quite irregular (not a match to the quality of the hilt) even by the less-than-perfect standards of pre-industrial production cutlery. However, the blade shows signs of age and apparently heavy use too since the edges have the irregularity associated with extensive sharpening, with heavy grinding locally to remove deep notches.

The tang button makes me suspicious and only helps cement my suspicion that the sword may be a composite.

Philip · 22nd July 2020, 02:16 AM

Cathey, just out of curiosity what is the point of balance on the blade? Could you please post images showing the tang peening, and the blade-to-crossguard fit?

Yvain · 22nd July 2020, 09:26 AM

I just got an idea, does it looks like something was sawed off the guard ? Or is there even some small irregularities or differences in patina and polish ?

I think it might actually be a kaskara rehilted as a medieval like sword in the XIXth, XXth century. The shape of the blade and of the guard (excluding the sawed off parts, middle langets and flared ends of the quillons), and the fact that the guard is made out of bronze (which isn't unheard of in medieval swords, but is unusual) are consistent with this hypothesis. It would explain the shape and finish of the blade (maybe even the inscription, perhaps Amharic ?) and the general proportions of the sword (guard too short, and weird blade length for an allegedly XIVth century one hander). The pommel, nut, and grip probably are of modern making.

Philip · 22nd July 2020, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yvain

I just got an idea, does it looks like something was sawed off the guard ? Or is there even some small irregularities or differences in patina and polish ?

I think it might actually be a kaskara rehilted as a medieval like sword in the XIXth, XXth century. The shape of the blade and of the guard (excluding the sawed off parts, middle langets and flared ends of the quillons), and the fact that the guard is made out of bronze (which isn't unheard of in medieval swords, but is unusual) are consistent with this hypothesis. It would explain the shape and finish of the blade (maybe even the inscription, perhaps Amharic ?) and the general proportions of the sword (guard too short, and weird blade length for an allegedly XIVth century one hander). The pommel, nut, and grip probably are of modern making.

I think you have a point, here. The proportions of the crossguard do appear "off" in relation to what is expected for authentic examples. And it being made of bronze: as said previously, non-ferrous hilt fittings are not unknown in medieval swords but shouldn't the pommel and guard be of the same metal in such case?

As to whether this guard is a recycled and altered kaskara crossguard, I'm not a kaskara expert so won't venture a definite opinion. But, in looking at an exhibition catalog (Splendeur des Armes, Paris, 1988) in front of me, there are 2-3 kaskaras but their quillons flare out quite notably, so if sawed off shorter, the ends would still be wider than what we see here. However, I leave it to someone who knows kaskaras to tell if there is enough of a variation in their guards to fit with your suggestion. Interesting!

Yvain · 22nd July 2020, 10:23 PM

There is some medieval swords with bronze pommel and guard, or bronze pommel and steel guard (even had the chance to take a look at one myself) to benefit from the weight of the bronze and the strenght of the steel, but I've never heard of one where it's the other way around.

Regarding the guard, it could indeed be a newly made element too, but I feel like grinding excess material with a file would be way more easy than making a new guard from scratch (but again, I could be wrong, and it might be a newly made one !)

Also see : http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=24259 , especially figure 10 exhibiting similar globus cruciger, but also some guards that could easily be modified into what we got here.

Philip · 23rd July 2020, 05:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yvain

There is some medieval swords with bronze pommel and guard, or bronze pommel and steel guard (even had the chance to take a look at one myself) to benefit from the weight of the bronze and the strenght of the steel, but I've never heard of one where it's the other way around.
.

Very astute observation, thanks!

ulfberth · 24th July 2020, 02:40 PM

Although these type of swords is not my field 16th c is , and this is not 16th C style.
So for the description I would use"13th C style".
kind regards
Ulfberth

22nd July 2020, 02:13 AM	#1
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	I tend to agree with both of you, my visual impression matches the points you raise. Isn't that "bottleneck" profile of the grip more appropriate on the longer, "bastard" or hand-and-half hilts, and particularly those from the German lands? The cross and orb symbol is typically German, 16th cent. The fuller at the axis of the blade is quite irregular (not a match to the quality of the hilt) even by the less-than-perfect standards of pre-industrial production cutlery. However, the blade shows signs of age and apparently heavy use too since the edges have the irregularity associated with extensive sharpening, with heavy grinding locally to remove deep notches. The tang button makes me suspicious and only helps cement my suspicion that the sword may be a composite.

22nd July 2020, 02:16 AM	#2
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Cathey, just out of curiosity what is the point of balance on the blade? Could you please post images showing the tang peening, and the blade-to-crossguard fit?

22nd July 2020, 09:26 AM	#3
Yvain Member Join Date: May 2017 Location: France Posts: 179	I just got an idea, does it looks like something was sawed off the guard ? Or is there even some small irregularities or differences in patina and polish ? I think it might actually be a kaskara rehilted as a medieval like sword in the XIXth, XXth century. The shape of the blade and of the guard (excluding the sawed off parts, middle langets and flared ends of the quillons), and the fact that the guard is made out of bronze (which isn't unheard of in medieval swords, but is unusual) are consistent with this hypothesis. It would explain the shape and finish of the blade (maybe even the inscription, perhaps Amharic ?) and the general proportions of the sword (guard too short, and weird blade length for an allegedly XIVth century one hander). The pommel, nut, and grip probably are of modern making.

22nd July 2020, 10:23 PM	#5
Yvain Member Join Date: May 2017 Location: France Posts: 179	There is some medieval swords with bronze pommel and guard, or bronze pommel and steel guard (even had the chance to take a look at one myself) to benefit from the weight of the bronze and the strenght of the steel, but I've never heard of one where it's the other way around. Regarding the guard, it could indeed be a newly made element too, but I feel like grinding excess material with a file would be way more easy than making a new guard from scratch (but again, I could be wrong, and it might be a newly made one !) Also see : http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=24259 , especially figure 10 exhibiting similar globus cruciger, but also some guards that could easily be modified into what we got here.

24th July 2020, 02:40 PM	#7
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 414	Although these type of swords is not my field 16th c is , and this is not 16th C style. So for the description I would use"13th C style". kind regards Ulfberth