Majapahit Keris

kai · 12th June 2019, 06:47 PM

Hello Anthony,

Quote:

Honestly speaking, I am still confuse about how Majapahit keris looks like, till now.

Most of us are wondering, I guess.

From statues and bas relief, it stands to reason that the keris buda (and possibly its ancestor, too) was at least well-known and very likely in active use by the ruling elite throughout (almost all of) the classical period. It’s the “modern“ keris which seems to make a really late appearance based on the extremely scant evidence.

Quote:

I always have impression it has less pamor, dark iron etc.

These features most commonly referred to in (pseudo) tangguh probably are mainly due to extensive erosion of the keris blade and subsequent exposure of the slorok.

As Alan already mentioned, it hasn’t been established whether blades classified as Majapahit really originate from that era. Even if partly true, each member of nobility must have hoarded thousands of keris to account for the number of examples nowadays claimed to be Mojo...

The earliest well-preserved modern keris are documented from European collections since the later 16th century. It seems quite possible that a small fraction of these may date to the late Mojo period. However, this could only be substantiated by destructive sampling and C14 analysis; any recycling of old steel might confound the results though.

Quote:

Below link is just a sample

Considering the ambiguous blumbangan, I‘d suggest that this is not the best candidate for a textbook example unless one subscribes to a very neoliberal tangguh approach...

Regards,
Kai

A. G. Maisey · 12th June 2019, 08:57 PM

Kai, I'm a very simple man, and I am sufficiently unfortunate to recognise my very distinct limitations.

One of those limitations is that I cannot be expert in all things that may be of interest to me. Thus, when it comes to some things I do not try to be an expert and to generate my own opinions, I simply turn to the people who are widely recognised as experts and I rely on those people.

So, if a whole flock of people regarded as expert in the interpretation and understanding of early Javanese sculpture are of the opinion that something is so, I do not feel that my own knowledge, even though I have used a considerable part of my life in the study of Javanese classical sculpture, is of sufficient weight to counter that group opinion.

There is a clear trail of keris development recorded in Javanese classical sculpture that stretches all the way from Candi Loro Jonggrang in Central Jawa, across into a swath of candis and statuary in East Jawa, and back to Candi Sukuh in Central Jawa.

Perhaps a good starting point to begin to understand what was happening during this period of development might be a reading of Pigeaud's "Java in the 14th Century". This work does not by any means give the whole story, but it is, I feel, an essential foundation stone upon which to build the necessary structure of knowledge. I was in my late thirties when I discovered it, and I wish I had known of it 20 years earlier, it would have helped to prevent me going down a lot of dead ends.

A. G. Maisey · 12th June 2019, 09:11 PM

In respect of your Post #11 Kai.

The Modern Keris, that is, the keris as we presently understand a keris to be, is the result of ongoing development spread over 1000 years or more, but what I personally find more interesting is the development of the understanding that surrounds the keris.

In the context of the keris, the word "tangguh" can be understood to mean "opinion". The Surakarta Tangguh System is a system of classification that is subject to a great deal of misunderstanding and is tolerant of the right of everybody to hold their own opinion. Of course, as with most things, the opinions of some people have more weight than the opinions of others.

kai · 13th June 2019, 06:58 AM

Hello Alan,

I‘m not arguing against any established evidence, am I? I‘m perfectly fine with opinions of respected authorities, too. No revolutionary ideas to put forth yet. I was just trying to add to the train of thought.

History of mankind is full of errors though. In my experience it does help to explore any assumptions, especially implicit or hidden ones.

Regards,
Kai

A. G. Maisey · 13th June 2019, 07:43 AM

I do not see your posts as arguing against anything Kai, and all I have done is to attempt to dispel any doubts you may have. Exploration of ideas is sometimes worthwhile, but we all need to have adequate background in the area we are exploring, if we do not it is very easy to get lost.

As for errors, well, never forget Sam Arbesman and his half life of facts. I love that idea. But though I do love the idea, facts, be they shown eventually to be truthful or not, are probably a good place to start anything.

Put another way, if we wish to question something that is currently accepted by those who are generally thought of as expert in something, we need to produce either evidence or logical argument to demonstrate that the present beliefs are ill founded. We cannot just run around throwing red herrings into the air and hoping that they do not stink when they land.

A. G. Maisey · 13th June 2019, 10:34 PM

Here is another Mojo keris, this one is at Candi Penataran (Panataran), near Blitar. Penataran is mentioned in the Nagarakertagama as Candi Palah. Candi Panataran was built (approximately) between 1350 & 1389.

This is one of my favourite Majapahit keris representations.

These representations are not rare, nor are they singular Kai, they're all over the place. True, they need to be searched for, but if you're prepared to put the time in, they can be found.

I've spent a total of around two weeks at Penataran over the years, I've visited Candi Sukuh more times than I remember, probably about 50 to 60 visits, usually only of 2 or 3 hours, but that time builds up. Prambanan (Loro Jonggrang) I've spent a total of 5 or 6 weeks on, but during my early visits, the terraces were not open for viewing. Most other Candis I've only visited once or twice, and only for a day or so --- except for Borobudur, I've spent a lot of time there, but it is Buddhist, no keris nor keris-like daggers there. There is a lot of statuary that has been shifted from its original location and is now in museums --- these examples are not always easy to find.

This one is interesting because it shows the rapier grip, which means that it does not have the heavy Indian style pommel that most of these early keris have.

We call these weapons "keris" now, and they might have been called "keris" back then too, but perhaps only in generic terms, there are other candidates for an accurate name when Old Javanese language was in use, names like "tuhuk" & "tewek", which could well refer to the same weapon, but be a reference to mode of use.

A. G. Maisey · 13th June 2019, 10:46 PM

Here is another interesting bas-relief from Penataran that shows a scabbard style that was in use in Jawa during the 1300's.

Remind you of anything?

kai · 14th June 2019, 06:53 AM

Hello Alan,

Quote:

This is one of my favourite Majapahit keris representations.

These representations are not rare, nor are they singular Kai, they're all over the place. True, they need to be searched for, but if you're prepared to put the time in, they can be found.

Yes, this is a gem! I‘ve also spent considerable time at temples from the classical period in Asia (as well as musea). It’s a shame that many sites were heavily looted with many pieces ending up in inaccessible private collections.

I agree that a number of representations of the keris buda are extant (I realize that this modern term is a bit unfortunate in the light of its not unexpected absence at Borobudur). Even more common are representations of its ancestor and in quite a few cases it is not really possible to verify whether the blade may already conform with our current definition of a keris blade (which at that period likely was not a distinct style but rather variations of a theme).

What really is extremely scant are representations of any modern keris though! The famous forge scene at Candi Sukuh may well show one example; its details are not really clear though (maybe an issue of craftsmanship?) and in my humble opinion it is not possible to utilize this as a proof of a fully developed modern keris. It’s very important evidence but may also show an intermediate style rather than a full-blown modern keris.

Regards,
Kai

13th June 2019, 10:34 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,017	Here is another Mojo keris, this one is at Candi Penataran (Panataran), near Blitar. Penataran is mentioned in the Nagarakertagama as Candi Palah. Candi Panataran was built (approximately) between 1350 & 1389. This is one of my favourite Majapahit keris representations. These representations are not rare, nor are they singular Kai, they're all over the place. True, they need to be searched for, but if you're prepared to put the time in, they can be found. I've spent a total of around two weeks at Penataran over the years, I've visited Candi Sukuh more times than I remember, probably about 50 to 60 visits, usually only of 2 or 3 hours, but that time builds up. Prambanan (Loro Jonggrang) I've spent a total of 5 or 6 weeks on, but during my early visits, the terraces were not open for viewing. Most other Candis I've only visited once or twice, and only for a day or so --- except for Borobudur, I've spent a lot of time there, but it is Buddhist, no keris nor keris-like daggers there. There is a lot of statuary that has been shifted from its original location and is now in museums --- these examples are not always easy to find. This one is interesting because it shows the rapier grip, which means that it does not have the heavy Indian style pommel that most of these early keris have. We call these weapons "keris" now, and they might have been called "keris" back then too, but perhaps only in generic terms, there are other candidates for an accurate name when Old Javanese language was in use, names like "tuhuk" & "tewek", which could well refer to the same weapon, but be a reference to mode of use. Attached Images

13th June 2019, 10:46 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,017	Here is another interesting bas-relief from Penataran that shows a scabbard style that was in use in Jawa during the 1300's. Remind you of anything? Attached Images

12th June 2019, 08:57 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,017	Kai, I'm a very simple man, and I am sufficiently unfortunate to recognise my very distinct limitations. One of those limitations is that I cannot be expert in all things that may be of interest to me. Thus, when it comes to some things I do not try to be an expert and to generate my own opinions, I simply turn to the people who are widely recognised as experts and I rely on those people. So, if a whole flock of people regarded as expert in the interpretation and understanding of early Javanese sculpture are of the opinion that something is so, I do not feel that my own knowledge, even though I have used a considerable part of my life in the study of Javanese classical sculpture, is of sufficient weight to counter that group opinion. There is a clear trail of keris development recorded in Javanese classical sculpture that stretches all the way from Candi Loro Jonggrang in Central Jawa, across into a swath of candis and statuary in East Jawa, and back to Candi Sukuh in Central Jawa. Perhaps a good starting point to begin to understand what was happening during this period of development might be a reading of Pigeaud's "Java in the 14th Century". This work does not by any means give the whole story, but it is, I feel, an essential foundation stone upon which to build the necessary structure of knowledge. I was in my late thirties when I discovered it, and I wish I had known of it 20 years earlier, it would have helped to prevent me going down a lot of dead ends.

12th June 2019, 09:11 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,017	In respect of your Post #11 Kai. The Modern Keris, that is, the keris as we presently understand a keris to be, is the result of ongoing development spread over 1000 years or more, but what I personally find more interesting is the development of the understanding that surrounds the keris. In the context of the keris, the word "tangguh" can be understood to mean "opinion". The Surakarta Tangguh System is a system of classification that is subject to a great deal of misunderstanding and is tolerant of the right of everybody to hold their own opinion. Of course, as with most things, the opinions of some people have more weight than the opinions of others.

13th June 2019, 06:58 AM	#4
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Hello Alan, I‘m not arguing against any established evidence, am I? I‘m perfectly fine with opinions of respected authorities, too. No revolutionary ideas to put forth yet. I was just trying to add to the train of thought. History of mankind is full of errors though. In my experience it does help to explore any assumptions, especially implicit or hidden ones. Regards, Kai

13th June 2019, 07:43 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,017	I do not see your posts as arguing against anything Kai, and all I have done is to attempt to dispel any doubts you may have. Exploration of ideas is sometimes worthwhile, but we all need to have adequate background in the area we are exploring, if we do not it is very easy to get lost. As for errors, well, never forget Sam Arbesman and his half life of facts. I love that idea. But though I do love the idea, facts, be they shown eventually to be truthful or not, are probably a good place to start anything. Put another way, if we wish to question something that is currently accepted by those who are generally thought of as expert in something, we need to produce either evidence or logical argument to demonstrate that the present beliefs are ill founded. We cannot just run around throwing red herrings into the air and hoping that they do not stink when they land.