Afghan Pistol

fernando · 21st January 2019, 10:48 AM

It is well known that the different parts of firearms were made by different specialized smiths, in their own shops and then sent to assembly.
Before mechanization systems were implemented, manual output had (slight) measurement variations, the various parts of an assembly having to be "fine tuned", i.e., adjusted to accomodate their specific partner. It is expectable that the stock, being the softer part, had to be adjusted to its barrel ... and lock. This system is evidentiated by the cuts we can see in this stock mortise; it would be no surprise to find the same number of cuts underneath its chosen barrel*, if still being the case ... as also inside the lock plate.
I do not see why Mr. Herbert was not the head of the Liegeoise workshop where this stock came from

*As per illustrated example.

.

corrado26 · 21st January 2019, 11:22 AM

As I wrote in post #10 I think that the stock and the iron mounts are totally new, to produce such items it needs heavy machinery and I have my severe doubts wether such machinery could have been in use in Afghanistan during the second half of the 19th century.

But if it is true what is written by Ibrahiim al Balooshi, that this is an "APPRENTICE PIECE DONE FOR THE TOURIST MARKET WHICH OTHER THAN SOME MILITARY PERSONNEL IS NON EXISTANT... IN KABUL SOUK YOU CAN SEE HUNDREDS OF THESE AND SIMILAR", than this means that the pistol is a very modern tourist item made during the last decades and has nothing to do with an antique pistol. Then it is probably worthless to have long discussions about it!
corrado26

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 21st January 2019, 12:38 PM

Well I don't know if it is worth discussing but I would suggest if you look at the end of the 19thC you will find that the Kabul National weapons making arsenal not only leaked like a sieve but that quite accurate weapons making machinery mysteriously vanished and resurfaced in what we would term back street workshops which to thus day turn out reasonable modern copies. I recall a good discussion on the Machin Khana factory on library some time ago.
khanjar1 poses a question looking for picture evidence in Kabul chicken street main souk of evidence of the hundreds of old style pistols I claim to have seen there a few years ago...which if you know the place you would certainly not want to be seen taking photographs down there. However I found various clues on the web and one in particular from just one small shop in the same souk complex with a lot of weapons in it... there are hundreds of such shops in chicken street just like this ...I also show guns from Darra down the Khyber on the Pakistan side.
The Martini Henry pistol is interesting and a good explanation sits at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTvxFNRLbiw

Fernando K · 21st January 2019, 02:52 PM

Hello

To more of everything that has been written here, the cap of the stock is of modern weapon, and it is not seen which is the method of fastening Is it a screw? Normally it is held by a spring. In addition, the wood is simply fitted and not dug.

affectionately

corrado26 · 21st January 2019, 03:10 PM

As far as I can see, all pistols in the fotos above are made in a typical British style of the East India Company and like these originals have their mounts made of cast brass which are much easierly to produce than iron mounts that have to be forged.
Quite obviously the pistol in question has except the lock and the barrel nothing British, neither the stock nor the mounts, so - and this is my last reply- why should this piece have been made in Afghanistan?

corrado26

Jim McDougall · 21st January 2019, 09:03 PM

Again, this has been a fascinating discussion, and as a virtual novice in the field of guns, I appreciate all the input and comments. I have through the years done occasional research concerning firearms, particularly those from India and Afghanistan which often included or course British.

The more I look at this one, the more it seems put together with varied components, but the terrible engraving on the lock seems far too poor to be either Irish (as I earlier suggested) or Liege. Either of these would never have had such poor quality lettering allowed, at least as far as I would think.

One thing I recall in material I read about the 'Khyber' copies of guns is that these were commonly produced often using bonified parts and elements of other weapons. That would account for a barrel which held the authentic British proof stamps. Why in the world a DUBLIN CASTLE lock would be coped in Afghan areas is puzzling as most locks there were variants of EIC locks.
But if any of the Dublin guns found their way via the constant movement of British troops in and out of the 'Raj' (they were produced in large number c. 1770s per Brooker) then it is possible that they would be subject to copy as well.
The Herbert name and those 'chop' marks are a puzzle as well, as these kinds of notes and marks were indeed systematically placed in guns in production...…..but not likely in Afghan shops. Again, I would return to loose parts being repurposed or used as components...….could this be the case?

While all of this supposition and analysis may seem irrelevant if this is indeed a 'tourist' or 'creative antique' ….the exercise, at least for me, has been informative and interesting. I do appreciate the observations and notes from those who have long handled firearms as well as the firsthand information on Afghan gunmaking shops. That adds good perspective to what I had read on them some years ago.

fernando · 22nd January 2019, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...The Herbert name and those 'chop' marks are a puzzle as well, as these kinds of notes and marks were indeed systematically placed in guns in production...…..but not likely in Afghan shops. Again, I would return to loose parts being repurposed or used as components...….could this be the case?....

Indeed ...

.

kahnjar1 · 21st January 2019, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Well I don't know if it is worth discussing but I would suggest if you look at the end of the 19thC you will find that the Kabul National weapons making arsenal not only leaked like a sieve but that quite accurate weapons making machinery mysteriously vanished and resurfaced in what we would term back street workshops which to thus day turn out reasonable modern copies. I recall a good discussion on the Machin Khana factory on library some time ago.
khanjar1 poses a question looking for picture evidence in Kabul chicken street main souk of evidence of the hundreds of old style pistols I claim to have seen there a few years ago...which if you know the place you would certainly not want to be seen taking photographs down there. However I found various clues on the web and one in particular from just one small shop in the same souk complex with a lot of weapons in it... there are hundreds of such shops in chicken street just like this ...I also show guns from Darra down the Khyber on the Pakistan side.
The Martini Henry pistol is interesting and a good explanation sits at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTvxFNRLbiw

Thanks very much for the pics. It would be interesting to dig thru the guns shown but not probably a safe project for now..........
Stu

21st January 2019, 12:38 PM	#3
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Well I don't know if it is worth discussing but I would suggest if you look at the end of the 19thC you will find that the Kabul National weapons making arsenal not only leaked like a sieve but that quite accurate weapons making machinery mysteriously vanished and resurfaced in what we would term back street workshops which to thus day turn out reasonable modern copies. I recall a good discussion on the Machin Khana factory on library some time ago. khanjar1 poses a question looking for picture evidence in Kabul chicken street main souk of evidence of the hundreds of old style pistols I claim to have seen there a few years ago...which if you know the place you would certainly not want to be seen taking photographs down there. However I found various clues on the web and one in particular from just one small shop in the same souk complex with a lot of weapons in it... there are hundreds of such shops in chicken street just like this ...I also show guns from Darra down the Khyber on the Pakistan side. The Martini Henry pistol is interesting and a good explanation sits at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTvxFNRLbiw Attached Images

21st January 2019, 10:48 AM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	It is well known that the different parts of firearms were made by different specialized smiths, in their own shops and then sent to assembly. Before mechanization systems were implemented, manual output had (slight) measurement variations, the various parts of an assembly having to be "fine tuned", i.e., adjusted to accomodate their specific partner. It is expectable that the stock, being the softer part, had to be adjusted to its barrel ... and lock. This system is evidentiated by the cuts we can see in this stock mortise; it would be no surprise to find the same number of cuts underneath its chosen barrel, if still being the case ... as also inside the lock plate. I do not see why Mr. Herbert was not the head of the Liegeoise workshop where this stock came from As per illustrated example. . Attached Images

21st January 2019, 11:22 AM	#2
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,236	As I wrote in post #10 I think that the stock and the iron mounts are totally new, to produce such items it needs heavy machinery and I have my severe doubts wether such machinery could have been in use in Afghanistan during the second half of the 19th century. But if it is true what is written by Ibrahiim al Balooshi, that this is an "APPRENTICE PIECE DONE FOR THE TOURIST MARKET WHICH OTHER THAN SOME MILITARY PERSONNEL IS NON EXISTANT... IN KABUL SOUK YOU CAN SEE HUNDREDS OF THESE AND SIMILAR", than this means that the pistol is a very modern tourist item made during the last decades and has nothing to do with an antique pistol. Then it is probably worthless to have long discussions about it! corrado26

21st January 2019, 02:52 PM	#4
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 671	Hello To more of everything that has been written here, the cap of the stock is of modern weapon, and it is not seen which is the method of fastening Is it a screw? Normally it is held by a spring. In addition, the wood is simply fitted and not dug. affectionately

21st January 2019, 03:10 PM	#5
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,236	As far as I can see, all pistols in the fotos above are made in a typical British style of the East India Company and like these originals have their mounts made of cast brass which are much easierly to produce than iron mounts that have to be forged. Quite obviously the pistol in question has except the lock and the barrel nothing British, neither the stock nor the mounts, so - and this is my last reply- why should this piece have been made in Afghanistan? corrado26

21st January 2019, 09:03 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,425	Again, this has been a fascinating discussion, and as a virtual novice in the field of guns, I appreciate all the input and comments. I have through the years done occasional research concerning firearms, particularly those from India and Afghanistan which often included or course British. The more I look at this one, the more it seems put together with varied components, but the terrible engraving on the lock seems far too poor to be either Irish (as I earlier suggested) or Liege. Either of these would never have had such poor quality lettering allowed, at least as far as I would think. One thing I recall in material I read about the 'Khyber' copies of guns is that these were commonly produced often using bonified parts and elements of other weapons. That would account for a barrel which held the authentic British proof stamps. Why in the world a DUBLIN CASTLE lock would be coped in Afghan areas is puzzling as most locks there were variants of EIC locks. But if any of the Dublin guns found their way via the constant movement of British troops in and out of the 'Raj' (they were produced in large number c. 1770s per Brooker) then it is possible that they would be subject to copy as well. The Herbert name and those 'chop' marks are a puzzle as well, as these kinds of notes and marks were indeed systematically placed in guns in production...…..but not likely in Afghan shops. Again, I would return to loose parts being repurposed or used as components...….could this be the case? While all of this supposition and analysis may seem irrelevant if this is indeed a 'tourist' or 'creative antique' ….the exercise, at least for me, has been informative and interesting. I do appreciate the observations and notes from those who have long handled firearms as well as the firsthand information on Afghan gunmaking shops. That adds good perspective to what I had read on them some years ago.