Afghan Pistol

kahnjar1 · 19th January 2019, 06:35 PM

Hi Rick,
Very nice pistol but I do have some observations. Although the lock itself may possibly be an original, I do not believe that the Crown and GR look to be the quality of English engraving. Also the word DUBLIN?? and whatever is underneath it do not look right to me.
Re the Proof marks....if you can post a clear pic of these I should be able to help. Certainly the crowned V is a view mark used by English Proof Houses. The others are not clear enough to identify.
Stu

fernando · 19th January 2019, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

... I do not believe that the Crown and GR look to be the quality of English engraving. Also the word DUBLIN?? and whatever is underneath it do not look right to me...

Liege fantasy ?

.

Jim McDougall · 19th January 2019, 09:55 PM

While firearms are surely not my typical field of study, and I do not at all discount the observations thus far, I am under the impression this very interesting pistol is a version of the 'late dragoon' type....but legitimately produced. I do not personally think it a Liege example, though this center certainly produced huge volumes of copied and repurposed arms as described.

Neither do I believe this is an Afghan copy of same, though the rather crude engraving does parallel the often remarkably faithful copies of British guns produced in the Khyber regions (Northwest Frontier agency).

In both these cases, it does not seem that the name stamp inside the stock behind the lock would be present, though of course in actual British context it would be placed by assemblers in accord with that practice.

In "British Military Pistols 1603-1888" R.E. Brooker, (1978, p.45) example #40 shows one of these dragoon pistols from DUBLIN CASTLE, and the crown over GR (George III, 1760-1820) . On the example illustrated the markings are remarkably similar, and the surround border on the Dublin Castle is correct. While the lock seems correct, the other furnishings seem varied, such as the side mount serpentine not at all similar.

Brooker notes that during the Revolutionary War these pistols were assembled in Ireland in large volume as the local military forces were increased to 50,000 men. With this ersatz production volume it seems logical that established makers as well as sub contract workers were employed in this production. As such, it seems possible that quality as well as consistency was wanting,and as Brooker suggests, the numerous 'variations' presumed by collectors.

Perhaps this scenario may apply here, though the case for the Belgian or Afghan productions are entirely plausible.

kahnjar1 · 19th January 2019, 10:12 PM

Thank you Jim for deciphering the word under DUBLIN. I could not make it out. I note your comments but wonder at the engraving of the words which do not seem to quite fit the space without squeezing up the letters. Not what I would have expected from English engravers..............
Now to the "Liege connection". I am familiar with Leige made copies, but have never seen one WITHOUT the correct Liege Proofs. Remember that Proof is and was governed by Law, and any LEGAL production would have had to abide by the Proof Laws of the time, and carry the relevant stamps.
Stu

Jim McDougall · 20th January 2019, 02:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Thank you Jim for deciphering the word under DUBLIN. I could not make it out. I note your comments but wonder at the engraving of the words which do not seem to quite fit the space without squeezing up the letters. Not what I would have expected from English engravers..............
Now to the "Liege connection". I am familiar with Leige made copies, but have never seen one WITHOUT the correct Liege Proofs. Remember that Proof is and was governed by Law, and any LEGAL production would have had to abide by the Proof Laws of the time, and carry the relevant stamps.
Stu

Totally agree Stu, this engraving really is substandard for British work, and also agree that Liege work characteristically does carry proof marks. I am not sure how much this was enforced with Liege arms in the 18th century, but 19th century items seem always to have these marks someplace.

As I mentioned, what puzzles me is if this were Afghan, or for that matter to add impetus to the Liege question, is why would that assemblers name be behind the lock? I will say that the terrible execution of letters/serifs and the crowding in the 'CASTLE' word does suggest something like the Khyber work.

Again, it would seem if there were a sudden push to arm all these local volunteers during the Revolution, and the notable volume of pistols being probably farmed out in Ireland for finishing.....the quality of many of these may well have suffered. In the images in Brooker, the DUBLIN CASTLE were in the same configuration, and the crown and GR were positioned the same, partially obscured by the cock.
I agree, the letters are clumsy, and the line seems to be equally clumsy in execution, but work is only as good as the skill of the engraver. It does seem there are required proofs on the barrel here, which suggests that while not prettily done, it was likely functional enough.

While it seems to me virtually all Afghan guns are focused toward copying East India Company arms, and in my admittedly not comprehensive familiarity with these, what I have seen never included these kinds of apparently ersatz weapons. Brooker claims these 'Irish' examples are considered common, so reproductions or possible fakes seem unlikely.

These are just my observations based on references I have, and look forward to other perspectives as I hope to learn more on these firearms. Im glad we seem to be in accord regarding the Liege question, and the notes on the proof situation there, thank you.

corrado26 · 20th January 2019, 08:58 AM

I have in my now more than 55 years of collecting of firearms of the 16th to the 19th century seen lots of pistols and guns made at Liège that have no ELG mark on their barrels.
Here you see two pistols made in the Dublin Castle out of the huge collection of my friend Bob Brooker. As you can see the signatures are the same. So at least the lock of the pistol in question and maybe the barrel has been made in Dublin. But all the rest, the stock, the barrel ring, first of all the eventually French or Belgium sideplate and the far later industrially produced stock are additions of Liège gunmakers.
corrado26

Kubur · 20th January 2019, 09:12 AM

Hi,
I vote for the English/Irish connections...
Direct trade and copies from English productions are very well known for the khyber pass. Plus Liege as far I know produced guns for the Meditterranean and African markets, as it was said armes de traite or levantines.

Rick, is your barrel the same thickness?
One photo at the muzzle seems to indicate that the barrel might be local...
Kubur

20th January 2019, 08:58 AM	#6
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,226	I have in my now more than 55 years of collecting of firearms of the 16th to the 19th century seen lots of pistols and guns made at Liège that have no ELG mark on their barrels. Here you see two pistols made in the Dublin Castle out of the huge collection of my friend Bob Brooker. As you can see the signatures are the same. So at least the lock of the pistol in question and maybe the barrel has been made in Dublin. But all the rest, the stock, the barrel ring, first of all the eventually French or Belgium sideplate and the far later industrially produced stock are additions of Liège gunmakers. corrado26 Attached Images

19th January 2019, 06:35 PM	#1
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,786	Hi Rick, Very nice pistol but I do have some observations. Although the lock itself may possibly be an original, I do not believe that the Crown and GR look to be the quality of English engraving. Also the word DUBLIN?? and whatever is underneath it do not look right to me. Re the Proof marks....if you can post a clear pic of these I should be able to help. Certainly the crowned V is a view mark used by English Proof Houses. The others are not clear enough to identify. Stu

19th January 2019, 09:55 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	While firearms are surely not my typical field of study, and I do not at all discount the observations thus far, I am under the impression this very interesting pistol is a version of the 'late dragoon' type....but legitimately produced. I do not personally think it a Liege example, though this center certainly produced huge volumes of copied and repurposed arms as described. Neither do I believe this is an Afghan copy of same, though the rather crude engraving does parallel the often remarkably faithful copies of British guns produced in the Khyber regions (Northwest Frontier agency). In both these cases, it does not seem that the name stamp inside the stock behind the lock would be present, though of course in actual British context it would be placed by assemblers in accord with that practice. In "British Military Pistols 1603-1888" R.E. Brooker, (1978, p.45) example #40 shows one of these dragoon pistols from DUBLIN CASTLE, and the crown over GR (George III, 1760-1820) . On the example illustrated the markings are remarkably similar, and the surround border on the Dublin Castle is correct. While the lock seems correct, the other furnishings seem varied, such as the side mount serpentine not at all similar. Brooker notes that during the Revolutionary War these pistols were assembled in Ireland in large volume as the local military forces were increased to 50,000 men. With this ersatz production volume it seems logical that established makers as well as sub contract workers were employed in this production. As such, it seems possible that quality as well as consistency was wanting,and as Brooker suggests, the numerous 'variations' presumed by collectors. Perhaps this scenario may apply here, though the case for the Belgian or Afghan productions are entirely plausible.

19th January 2019, 10:12 PM	#4
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,786	Thank you Jim for deciphering the word under DUBLIN. I could not make it out. I note your comments but wonder at the engraving of the words which do not seem to quite fit the space without squeezing up the letters. Not what I would have expected from English engravers.............. Now to the "Liege connection". I am familiar with Leige made copies, but have never seen one WITHOUT the correct Liege Proofs. Remember that Proof is and was governed by Law, and any LEGAL production would have had to abide by the Proof Laws of the time, and carry the relevant stamps. Stu

20th January 2019, 09:12 AM	#7
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi, I vote for the English/Irish connections... Direct trade and copies from English productions are very well known for the khyber pass. Plus Liege as far I know produced guns for the Meditterranean and African markets, as it was said armes de traite or levantines. Rick, is your barrel the same thickness? One photo at the muzzle seems to indicate that the barrel might be local... Kubur