Small Ottoman (?) knife for ID, Bulgarian shepherd's knife?

TVV · 21st October 2018, 06:31 PM

This is not connected to Bulgarian shepherd's knives for sure. To me it is reminiscent of Central Asian knives, such as the Uzbek pichok (you can see some earlier Bukhara examples in the Moser collection, etc. for comparison). This does not mean it is not Ottoman - in fact, it most probably is, but it is an older Central Asian form and not connected to the Balkans.

Teodor

Sajen · 21st October 2018, 09:35 PM

Thank you very much Teodor!

Regards,
Detlef

sfenoid13 · 4th November 2018, 06:33 AM

I collect these knives and I know it is Ottoman Turkish from the Black Sea region. It belongs to Laz people. Laz people, today considered a minority muslim community in Turkey live along the Black Sea especially Trebizond area and are excellent knive makers, even today. this style was popular at the beginning o fthe century early 1900s until 40s and even 50s. They have somewhet changed in style but they have a dinstinct style and very detailed and quality workmanship and decorations. If you know Laz Yatagans you know what I am talking about

. These knives arealso known as "bichak" or "saldirma", you can also search "Karadeniz Saldirma" in google and you will see similar knives. My favorite knife type.

Sajen · 4th November 2018, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sfenoid13

I collect these knives and I know it is Ottoman Turkish from the Black Sea region. It belongs to Laz people. Laz people, today considered a minority muslim community in Turkey live along the Black Sea especially Trebizond area and are excellent knive makers, even today. this style was popular at the beginning o fthe century early 1900s until 40s and even 50s. They have somewhet changed in style but they have a dinstinct style and very detailed and quality workmanship and decorations. If you know Laz Yatagans you know what I am talking about

. These knives arealso known as "bichak" or "saldirma", you can also search "Karadeniz Saldirma" in google and you will see similar knives. My favorite knife type.

Hello Sfenoid,

thank you very much for pin down the exact origin of this little knife. Sadly my search with your given keywords don't show any similar knives.
Would you be so kind to show some of your examples for comparison? So we would have a reference thread to show this knife type.

Regards,
Detlef

sfenoid13 · 4th November 2018, 06:21 PM

Hi,
I just realized how hard it is to find good samples of these knives online

. They come from a very small area and they have a very specific style and design to them, with some variations of course. The main town that produces them is Surmene, so you can also look up Surmene Knife in yoru search. You will see that they still make these knives today, actually very similar looking to your samples as well (other than the handle style and bronze details).
I dont have pictures of my collection readily available but I found some examples online for you just now.

Sajen · 4th November 2018, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sfenoid13

Hi,
I just realized how hard it is to find good samples of these knives online

. They come from a very small area and they have a very specific style and design to them, with some variations of course. The main town that produces them is Surmene, so you can also look up Surmene Knife in yoru search. You will see that they still make these knives today, actually very similar looking to your samples as well (other than the handle style and bronze details).
I dont have pictures of my collection readily available but I found some examples online for you just now.

Hi Sfenoid,
thank you very much for the provided examples, now I see that you are correct.

Do you know the purpose of this knives? Utility? Weapon?
I don't want to give pressure but would be glad to see your collection of this knife type (saldirma) one day!

Any age guess by my example?

Regards,
Detlef

sfenoid13 · 4th November 2018, 08:58 PM

These knives were made mostly for utility, the smaller types but the larger ones were carried for self defense or intimidation. The word "saldirma" means "attack" and it is the name given to the larger of these knives. they have the blood channels and a curved double edge tip for stabbing. there are even traditional folklor dances including these knives where 2 or 4 men dance with knives pretend to attack each other

Some of the large ones are really impressive and scary. If you saw someone with a knife like that you would know to stay away from them

. There are also sets with knives, forks being together for picnic purposes

I will gladly show you my collection when I get a chance.
Of the date for yours I believe is 1920s or may be later..hard to tell. Bigger ones are usually older as carrying knives and swords was banned in modern era Turkey after WW2 I believe. It is still illegal to carry knives on person in Turkey. Many of the swords, yatagans and big knives were hidden or destroyed because of this.

4th November 2018, 06:21 PM	#5
sfenoid13 Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 134	Hi, I just realized how hard it is to find good samples of these knives online . They come from a very small area and they have a very specific style and design to them, with some variations of course. The main town that produces them is Surmene, so you can also look up Surmene Knife in yoru search. You will see that they still make these knives today, actually very similar looking to your samples as well (other than the handle style and bronze details). I dont have pictures of my collection readily available but I found some examples online for you just now. Attached Images

21st October 2018, 06:31 PM	#1
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	This is not connected to Bulgarian shepherd's knives for sure. To me it is reminiscent of Central Asian knives, such as the Uzbek pichok (you can see some earlier Bukhara examples in the Moser collection, etc. for comparison). This does not mean it is not Ottoman - in fact, it most probably is, but it is an older Central Asian form and not connected to the Balkans. Teodor

21st October 2018, 09:35 PM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,165	Thank you very much Teodor! Regards, Detlef

4th November 2018, 06:33 AM	#3
sfenoid13 Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 134	I collect these knives and I know it is Ottoman Turkish from the Black Sea region. It belongs to Laz people. Laz people, today considered a minority muslim community in Turkey live along the Black Sea especially Trebizond area and are excellent knive makers, even today. this style was popular at the beginning o fthe century early 1900s until 40s and even 50s. They have somewhet changed in style but they have a dinstinct style and very detailed and quality workmanship and decorations. If you know Laz Yatagans you know what I am talking about . These knives arealso known as "bichak" or "saldirma", you can also search "Karadeniz Saldirma" in google and you will see similar knives. My favorite knife type.

4th November 2018, 08:58 PM	#7
sfenoid13 Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 134	These knives were made mostly for utility, the smaller types but the larger ones were carried for self defense or intimidation. The word "saldirma" means "attack" and it is the name given to the larger of these knives. they have the blood channels and a curved double edge tip for stabbing. there are even traditional folklor dances including these knives where 2 or 4 men dance with knives pretend to attack each other Some of the large ones are really impressive and scary. If you saw someone with a knife like that you would know to stay away from them . There are also sets with knives, forks being together for picnic purposes I will gladly show you my collection when I get a chance. Of the date for yours I believe is 1920s or may be later..hard to tell. Bigger ones are usually older as carrying knives and swords was banned in modern era Turkey after WW2 I believe. It is still illegal to carry knives on person in Turkey. Many of the swords, yatagans and big knives were hidden or destroyed because of this.