Small Ottoman (?) knife for ID, Bulgarian shepherd's knife?

Sajen · 21st October 2018, 10:33 AM

It coming with a similar but bigger one which I have resold, here some auction pictures, maybe it's helpful.

drac2k · 21st October 2018, 02:07 PM

Very nice knife; the blade profile and the file work remind me of Cretan blades.

Sajen · 21st October 2018, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drac2k

Very nice knife; the blade profile and the file work remind me of Cretan blades.

Thank you!

TVV · 21st October 2018, 06:31 PM

This is not connected to Bulgarian shepherd's knives for sure. To me it is reminiscent of Central Asian knives, such as the Uzbek pichok (you can see some earlier Bukhara examples in the Moser collection, etc. for comparison). This does not mean it is not Ottoman - in fact, it most probably is, but it is an older Central Asian form and not connected to the Balkans.

Teodor

Sajen · 21st October 2018, 09:35 PM

Thank you very much Teodor!

Regards,
Detlef

sfenoid13 · 4th November 2018, 06:33 AM

I collect these knives and I know it is Ottoman Turkish from the Black Sea region. It belongs to Laz people. Laz people, today considered a minority muslim community in Turkey live along the Black Sea especially Trebizond area and are excellent knive makers, even today. this style was popular at the beginning o fthe century early 1900s until 40s and even 50s. They have somewhet changed in style but they have a dinstinct style and very detailed and quality workmanship and decorations. If you know Laz Yatagans you know what I am talking about

. These knives arealso known as "bichak" or "saldirma", you can also search "Karadeniz Saldirma" in google and you will see similar knives. My favorite knife type.

Sajen · 4th November 2018, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sfenoid13

I collect these knives and I know it is Ottoman Turkish from the Black Sea region. It belongs to Laz people. Laz people, today considered a minority muslim community in Turkey live along the Black Sea especially Trebizond area and are excellent knive makers, even today. this style was popular at the beginning o fthe century early 1900s until 40s and even 50s. They have somewhet changed in style but they have a dinstinct style and very detailed and quality workmanship and decorations. If you know Laz Yatagans you know what I am talking about

. These knives arealso known as "bichak" or "saldirma", you can also search "Karadeniz Saldirma" in google and you will see similar knives. My favorite knife type.

Hello Sfenoid,

thank you very much for pin down the exact origin of this little knife. Sadly my search with your given keywords don't show any similar knives.
Would you be so kind to show some of your examples for comparison? So we would have a reference thread to show this knife type.

Regards,
Detlef

gp · 29th September 2022, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

It coming with a similar but bigger one which I have resold, here some auction pictures, maybe it's helpful.

going through the link , the picture is indeed helpful; the bigger one has a decoration on the blade which often can be seen on the Bosnian an Serbian knives. In one of the threads on bichaqs I places one or two pics of 3 knives from little to bigger with copper handle and also the octagonal shape...

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...76&postcount=2
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...2&postcount=76

RobT · 30th September 2022, 01:42 AM

Hi sfenoid13,

I had always thought that this knife was from the Trabzon region. Is it a saldirma?

Sincerely,
RobT

David R · 30th September 2022, 08:28 AM

I just thought I might as well join in with mine, posted before but on its own thread.

gp · 30th September 2022, 08:42 AM

very nice knives but we must be careful not to mix 3 differnet types I see in this thread :

1. former Yugoslavia ( Bosnian knives)
2. Surmene knives
3. Laz knives or as they are called in Georgia "Babas Khama"
with some pics of the latter

RobT · 30th September 2022, 01:53 PM

Hi gp,

Are you saying that the knife I posted is from the "former Yugoslavia ( Bosnian knives)" and the knife that David R posted is from the "Surmene" area?. What about the pictures from sfenoid13 that Sajen posted?

Sincerely,
RobT

gp · 30th September 2022, 06:00 PM

#5 from Detlef is a Bosnian one…that triggered my attention.

Next I see a few ( very nice) Surmene ones, but also some Laz ones.

And although we recently had an interesting exchange of minds in the forum concerning the Laz yataghans, I recently learned from a professional, who is a specialist on cold weapons from that region, that these Laz daggers shown are actually Georgian ( I compared them with some pics from his collection he showed me).
Being not a specialist on the Caucasian topic, I know not all Laz are Surmene and vise versa. Sorry if my previous post lead to some confusion.

BR

Gunar

21st October 2018, 10:33 AM	#1
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,165	It coming with a similar but bigger one which I have resold, here some auction pictures, maybe it's helpful. Attached Images

30th September 2022, 01:42 AM	#9
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 535	Saldirma? Hi sfenoid13, I had always thought that this knife was from the Trabzon region. Is it a saldirma? Sincerely, RobT Attached Images

30th September 2022, 08:28 AM	#10
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,116	I just thought I might as well join in with mine, posted before but on its own thread. Attached Images

30th September 2022, 08:42 AM	#11
gp Member Join Date: May 2020 Posts: 823	very nice knives but we must be careful not to mix 3 differnet types I see in this thread : 1. former Yugoslavia ( Bosnian knives) 2. Surmene knives 3. Laz knives or as they are called in Georgia "Babas Khama" with some pics of the latter Attached Images

30th September 2022, 01:53 PM	#12
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 535	Which Is Which? Hi gp, Are you saying that the knife I posted is from the "former Yugoslavia ( Bosnian knives)" and the knife that David R posted is from the "Surmene" area?. What about the pictures from sfenoid13 that Sajen posted? Sincerely, RobT

21st October 2018, 02:07 PM	#2
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,255	Very nice knife; the blade profile and the file work remind me of Cretan blades.

21st October 2018, 06:31 PM	#4
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	This is not connected to Bulgarian shepherd's knives for sure. To me it is reminiscent of Central Asian knives, such as the Uzbek pichok (you can see some earlier Bukhara examples in the Moser collection, etc. for comparison). This does not mean it is not Ottoman - in fact, it most probably is, but it is an older Central Asian form and not connected to the Balkans. Teodor

21st October 2018, 09:35 PM	#5
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,165	Thank you very much Teodor! Regards, Detlef

4th November 2018, 06:33 AM	#6
sfenoid13 Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 134	I collect these knives and I know it is Ottoman Turkish from the Black Sea region. It belongs to Laz people. Laz people, today considered a minority muslim community in Turkey live along the Black Sea especially Trebizond area and are excellent knive makers, even today. this style was popular at the beginning o fthe century early 1900s until 40s and even 50s. They have somewhet changed in style but they have a dinstinct style and very detailed and quality workmanship and decorations. If you know Laz Yatagans you know what I am talking about . These knives arealso known as "bichak" or "saldirma", you can also search "Karadeniz Saldirma" in google and you will see similar knives. My favorite knife type.

30th September 2022, 06:00 PM	#13
gp Member Join Date: May 2020 Posts: 823	#5 from Detlef is a Bosnian one…that triggered my attention. Next I see a few ( very nice) Surmene ones, but also some Laz ones. And although we recently had an interesting exchange of minds in the forum concerning the Laz yataghans, I recently learned from a professional, who is a specialist on cold weapons from that region, that these Laz daggers shown are actually Georgian ( I compared them with some pics from his collection he showed me). Being not a specialist on the Caucasian topic, I know not all Laz are Surmene and vise versa. Sorry if my previous post lead to some confusion. BR Gunar Last edited by gp; 1st October 2022 at 12:21 AM.