Obscure knife--Kota "kris"

A. G. Maisey · 25th September 2018, 08:34 PM

Charles, I was not aware that the "keris form" was widely regarded as having originated in India.

Further, I most sincerely doubt that the name of this weapon is in fact "kris".

I believe investigation will demonstrate that it was named as "kris" by a person who was not a part of the society or culture from which it came. In fact it does not bear any of the characteristics which would make it able to be classified as a keris (or kris, or creese).

Not all weapons that have a flamboyant blade are keris, and a flamboyant blade is not necessarily an attribute of the keris.

Ian · 25th September 2018, 09:43 PM

Hi Charles,

Yes, very surprising that this would be an Indian knife from one of the "aboriginal" cultures. The ricasso suggests to me that it may have some European influence--I don't think it is necessarily a traditional knife from the Kota people, but it might be. There are other wavy bladed knives from India. I just don't know enough about the area from which it was apparently collected.

Alan,

Thank you for your comment too. I inserted "kris" in the title because that was a quote from the description of the museum, but the style of this knife is clearly different from the Indonesian keris, as you rightly point out.

Ian

CharlesS · 25th September 2018, 10:53 PM

Alan,

Perhaps I erred by not being more specific and saying that the very earliest forebearers of the keris may have originated in India, and not the "modern" keris form. I am fully aware that some Indonesian scholars even argue this point.

As you know I am an admirer of your research and knowledge, and I have ascertained the same sort of generality in your own work in introducing the origins of the keris and the early influence of Indian seafaring traders in Indonesian history: http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/maisey/index.html

So that is, indeed, what I meant and apologize for the lack of specifics.

David · 26th September 2018, 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Thank you for your comment too. I inserted "kris" in the title because that was a quote from the description of the museum, but the style of this knife is clearly different from the Indonesian keris, as you rightly point out.

A museum should know better than to call such a blade like this a "kris", especially the American Museum of Natural History. The kris/keris is a rather specific blade form and i get tired of seeing just any flamboyant blade labelled as a such.

25th September 2018, 08:34 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	Charles, I was not aware that the "keris form" was widely regarded as having originated in India. Further, I most sincerely doubt that the name of this weapon is in fact "kris". I believe investigation will demonstrate that it was named as "kris" by a person who was not a part of the society or culture from which it came. In fact it does not bear any of the characteristics which would make it able to be classified as a keris (or kris, or creese). Not all weapons that have a flamboyant blade are keris, and a flamboyant blade is not necessarily an attribute of the keris.

25th September 2018, 09:43 PM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,401	Hi Charles, Yes, very surprising that this would be an Indian knife from one of the "aboriginal" cultures. The ricasso suggests to me that it may have some European influence--I don't think it is necessarily a traditional knife from the Kota people, but it might be. There are other wavy bladed knives from India. I just don't know enough about the area from which it was apparently collected. Alan, Thank you for your comment too. I inserted "kris" in the title because that was a quote from the description of the museum, but the style of this knife is clearly different from the Indonesian keris, as you rightly point out. Ian

25th September 2018, 10:53 PM	#3
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	Alan, Perhaps I erred by not being more specific and saying that the very earliest forebearers of the keris may have originated in India, and not the "modern" keris form. I am fully aware that some Indonesian scholars even argue this point. As you know I am an admirer of your research and knowledge, and I have ascertained the same sort of generality in your own work in introducing the origins of the keris and the early influence of Indian seafaring traders in Indonesian history: http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/maisey/index.html So that is, indeed, what I meant and apologize for the lack of specifics.